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thedocACSV8

Auto gearbox, neutral override?

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I need to get the gearbox into neutral (from park) so I can rotate the crank shaft to see if the engine is ceased up or not?

The battery is connected, and ignition to prestart position and the dashboard lights come on, the red dots on the gear shifter aluminate, but even if the brake pedal is pressed, and the gear level knob button pressed in, it won't push into neutral? I don't know if it needs hydraulic pressure from a turning engine for this to work?

 

Any ideas, as car has been stood for 4 years now due to ill health?

 

cheers!

many thanks!

 

Edited by thedocACSV8

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I've a feeling you've actually found the answer.

 

An auto gearbox like these is separated from the engine by the torque converter, and this does not positively lock the engine to transmission except under certain controlled conditions when both running; it cannot, when unpowered.

 

Bottom line is - you should be able to rotate the flywheel at low rpm whatever state the gearbox is in, with engine & electronics off. I suspect yes, your engine is seized (partially or permanently)

Edited by Huff

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1 hour ago, Huff said:

I've a feeling you've actually found the answer.

 

An auto gearbox like these is separated from the engine by the torque converter, and this does not positively lock the engine to transmission except under certain controlled conditions when both running; it cannot, when unpowered.

 

Bottom line is - you should be able to rotate the flywheel at low rpm whatever state the gearbox is in, with engine & electronics off. I suspect yes, your engine is seized (partially or permanently)

I found a way to move the box to neutral, thanx:  here....https://forum.bmw5.co.uk/topic/120604-auto-gearbox-parkneutral-manual-override/?_fromLogin=1

I thought that when a auto box is in park mode, the car can't be moved even when the handbrake is off? i.e. you do have to put it in to neutral first? I need to get under the thing and turn the crank by hand 360 degrees before I do anything else to make sure it isn't seized! (no suspecting, no guessing!)   ...and remove the plugs first to help with the back pressure!

Thank you very much for your insight, but I know what a torque converter is, but just wasn't sure about the engine engagement?

Cheers!

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1 minute ago, thedocACSV8 said:

I found a way to move the box to neutral, thanx:  here....https://forum.bmw5.co.uk/topic/120604-auto-gearbox-parkneutral-manual-override/?_fromLogin=1

I thought that when a auto box is in park mode, the car can't be moved even when the handbrake is off? i.e. you do have to put it in to neutral first? I need to get under the thing and turn the crank by hand 360 degrees before I do anything else to make sure it isn't seized! (no suspecting, no guessing!)   ...and remove the plugs first to help with the back pressure!

Thank you very much for your insight, but I know what a torque converter is, but just wasn't sure about the engine engagement?

Cheers!

In park mode gearbox is locking itself up, so wheels can't spin, not the engine, engine can spin freely in park. And obviously you usually start engine while transmission is in park mode. So if engine isn't spinning, it might be seized.

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As Ray says, the engine can be rotated by hand in any gear including park, if it can't, something is blocking the engine. Park is equivalent to neutral as far as the engine and transmission are concerned, there is just a mechanical pawl that locks the driveshaft so the car doesn't roll. This can occasionally become hard to disengage (especially if under load like when the car is parked on an incline) but can usually be freed by rocking the car back and forth.

 

Transmission doesn't sound like the issue here. Can you turn the crankshaft pulley at all, in either direction? If not, I'd pull the plugs and try to rotate then to see if coolant got into the cylinder. Apart from the diesels, the E39 engine blocks are all aluminium, the rings don't really rust in place that easily.

 

 

 

 

 

 

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23 hours ago, Ray112 said:

In park mode gearbox is locking itself up, so wheels can't spin, not the engine, engine can spin freely in park. And obviously you usually start engine while transmission is in park mode. So if engine isn't spinning, it might be seized.

I don't know if its spinning yet or not because I haven't yet attempted to turn it by hand. I can't risk the starter after 4 years just sitting there with old engine oil in it. Cheers!

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36 minutes ago, thedocACSV8 said:

I don't know if its spinning yet or not because I haven't yet attempted to turn it by hand. I can't risk the starter after 4 years just sitting there with old engine oil in it. Cheers!

Spinning with starter won't make any harm in my opinion. If something has rusted in, like piston rings, then engine will need rebuild/replacement anyway.  Spinning it with starter at least will build up oil pressure, spinning with hand won't do that. About old engine oil I wouldn't worry as well, you don't have to run it forever on it, it's just for starting engine for couple minutes.

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Hi,

 

I remember you from some years back! I hope your health has improved so that you can enjoy the car again and welcome back!

 

Sorry I can't help with knowledge about the oily bits, I'm sure the guys above and others will know and help out so you can minimise any risks prior to starting the car up!

 

Cheers, Dennis!

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5 hours ago, Ray112 said:

Spinning with starter won't make any harm in my opinion. If something has rusted in, like piston rings, then engine will need rebuild/replacement anyway.  Spinning it with starter at least will build up oil pressure, spinning with hand won't do that. About old engine oil I wouldn't worry as well, you don't have to run it forever on it, it's just for starting engine for couple minutes.

Yes but, turning the engine by hand may not build up oil pressure, but it doesn't need too, because the engine is turning extremely slowly compared to when the engine is powered up; when powered up every part of the engine is moving fast (thousands of times per cycle), compared to hand turning at a snails pace! That's why it is an accepted procedure to hand turn when an engine has been laid dormant for a few years, don't want to risk ripping the big ends to shreds purely on an impulse! The old oil may not have broken down yet, but it will be well out of date by now! Also the coolant is well shafted with half anti-freeze mixture that didn't protect the radiator during the last severe winter period, as the radiator has burst and a lot of rubber components have perished whilst the vehicle has been laid idol. Then there is the petrol fuel system? After four years all the fuel has either evaporated or turned into mulch/sludge! I would have thought that the fuel system needs flushing through and the petrol tank thoroughly cleaned out? (before attempting to turn the engine over with powered ignition). I think the power steering is also dis-functional (?) as is the air-con system. I would have thought that a cautious approach is much more desirable than your gung-oh recklessness? Cheers! 

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Then maybe remove everything off the engine and spin every part you mentioned with hand because it's only safe way:mrgreen:. By the way if you remove spark plugs and fuel pump fuse and use starter motor, engine won't fire up, it will spin with around 250rpm, not with few thousands as you said, plus you don't have to do it for long. At least some oil is getting pumped in, not that crankshaft bearings are still left dry as it would be when spinning with hand. About other stuff you mentioned, obviously nothing can happen to power steering pump, air conditioning compressor and similar parts, just because they been standing for long. For example air-conditioning has clutch pulley, which if not engaged won't be spinning air-conditioning compressor. No need to get silly about it, but you start to sound like that. Good luck!

Edited by Ray112

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1 hour ago, Ray112 said:

Then maybe remove everything off the engine and spin every part you mentioned with hand because it's only safe way:mrgreen:. By the way if you remove spark plugs and fuel pump fuse and use starter motor, engine won't fire up, it will spin with around 250rpm, not with few thousands as you said, plus you don't have to do it for long. At least some oil is getting pumped in, not that crankshaft bearings are still left dry as it would be when spinning with hand. About other stuff you mentioned, obviously nothing can happen to power steering pump, air conditioning compressor and similar parts, just because they been standing for long. For example air-conditioning has clutch pulley, which if not engaged won't be spinning air-conditioning compressor. No need to get silly about it, but you start to sound like that. Good luck!

Yes, I will bare your valuable information in mind, and take it into consideration when dealing with this vehicle recommissioning. Thank you for your ideas and suggestions, I do need this kind of information to help me make decisions on how to procced, you have a lot more knowledge than me and I appreciate your input. Do you think I should have an 'AA' (200 point) detailed inspection? Cheers!

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10 hours ago, DennisCooper said:

Hi,

 

I remember you from some years back! I hope your health has improved so that you can enjoy the car again and welcome back!

 

Sorry I can't help with knowledge about the oily bits, I'm sure the guys above and others will know and help out so you can minimise any risks prior to starting the car up!

 

Cheers, Dennis!

Many thanks! Sadly "NO!" my health has deteriorated quite a lot! I am currently trying desperately to recommission this vehicle for sale, so that someone else can enjoy it and take care of it in the future. But I only have limited funds to accomplish this task. 

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Can you not just disconnect coils packs and spin it over on the starter until it has oil pressure?

If the starter isn't strong enough to 'unseize' it them it will need stripping fully anyway

Edited by Gte86

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10 hours ago, Gte86 said:

Can you not just disconnect coils packs and spin it over on the starter until it has oil pressure?

If the starter isn't strong enough to 'unseize' it them it will need stripping fully anyway

nice!

I don't know yet if it is seized, because I haven't attempted to turn it over so far.

What if the oil has "broken down" though?

Edited by thedocACSV8

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I got my previous 'knowledge'/advice from my favourite garage i.e.

"you need a battery to put the car into neutral by turning the ignition key to the pre-ignition position" - found out on here not true (U can use a screwdriver on the shifter, no battery needed).

"you need to put the auto box into neutral to disconnect it from the engine, before turning it over either by hand or on the  starter" - found out on here not true (torque converter is not engaged and the parking position only locks the rear wheels,  not the engine).

Seems my garage is wrong?

It just seemed sensible to me to flush the petrol fuel system after it has been stood 4 years?

As for the air-con, that didn't even work when I first bought the car and needs a thorough service, but as you say it won;t affect the start up because the compressor has a clutch.

Also, as you say the power steering won;t affect the start up procedure, but again after 4 years idol, I would like to have the power steering thoroughly serviced.

I would like to have the whole car thoroughly serviced in fact, and any rubber hoses, bushings etc. that have perished obviously need replacing together with the auxiliary & timing belts, better safe than sorry.

Lot of good advice on here which completely contradicts 'the garage expert' that I have been listening too, so far.

My confusion was mainly focused around the auto-box issue. Sorry for any confusion caused on here, I apologise!

The ASC will need checking too, plus the brakes. steering, suspension, diff. etc.

Oh! and the exhaust is falling off and the clear lacquer is peeling off the paintwork and the stone chip damage on the front of the bonnet has started to rust through and the bonnet opening mechanism has broken and the headlights are filling up with moisture and green mould and algae. Windows get stuck and so does the drivers rear view (exterior) mirror. Also the radiator has started leaking. But on the good news side, the radio works! 

Edited by thedocACSV8

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One lesson learned is that you need to find a new garage as the advice from yours would make me avoid them like the plague.

 l

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One last suggestion from me. I would try to turn over engine with starter motor for short period like couple seconds first. If it spins, try to start it. 

Again run it for short time, just to see if it's running. Last thing you want is to do full service, replace every possible fluid etc, invest fair bit of money and in the end realise that engine has lost compression or something else. 

 

About your garage, I haven't heard that much bullshit told for long time. Probably it's time to choose different garage, because where's guarantee that next time you won't be ripped off with lots of fairytales about extensive labor done to car, which actually never happened. 

 

About my knowledge, I'm not mechanic, but I'm in cars since I was 15. 

I'm repairing my cars, couple my mates cars etc for last 20 years, last ten years I'm going to see garage only for tyre mounting/balance and MOT, everything else is done by myself. Suspension work, diagnostics etc, some engines been rebuilt through years, head gaskets, timing belts etc. So if I'm saying something, it's based on some knowledge behind.  Accepting or not it private choice. 

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18 minutes ago, Ray112 said:

One last suggestion from me. I would try to turn over engine with starter motor for short period like couple seconds first. If it spins, try to start it. 

Again run it for short time, just to see if it's running. Last thing you want is to do full service, replace every possible fluid etc, invest fair bit of money and in the end realise that engine has lost compression or something else. 

 

About your garage, I haven't heard that much bullshit told for long time. Probably it's time to choose different garage, because where's guarantee that next time you won't be ripped off with lots of fairytales about extensive labor done to car, which actually never happened. 

 

About my knowledge, I'm not mechanic, but I'm in cars since I was 15. 

I'm repairing my cars, couple my mates cars etc for last 20 years, last ten years I'm going to see garage only for tyre mounting/balance and MOT, everything else is done by myself. Suspension work, diagnostics etc, some engines been rebuilt through years, head gaskets, timing belts etc. So if I'm saying something, it's based on some knowledge behind.  Accepting or not it private choice. 

"try to turn over engine with starter motor for short period like couple seconds".

OK.

"If it spins, try to start it. Again run it for short time, just to see if it's running.".

Yes, it would be a short time because the coolant has leaked out. To make it run I would have to put petrol in because obviously the small amount that was in there has evaporated or turned into treacle! I'm frightened of putting new fuel in because it might clog up the system and the injectors? Doesn't  it need flushing through first somehow?

"Compression issue", I have a compression meter which I haven't used in a while, so I could test this perhaps? Also, I removed the plugs to inspect, and most where sooty and black, one or two was dry and slightly burnt, & one other was swamped in oil (the oil also covered the spark plug remover socket as well). The last time it was driven there was no smoke from the exhaust? 

Yes, I have had plenty of rip off 'cowboy' garages in my younger days, and that was when I decided to  do as much as I could myself, but most of the time I never had a garage of my own, so I was on the street, at the mercy of the weather and thieves, but now my health has drastically gone down hill and can't do as much as I would like to these days. The thing about my garage is their best prices in the region and endless discounts for loyal customers, and they show you what they have done before you pay and always have verifiable receipts for parts. It is an MOT station as well and the garage is always 'chock a block' with work, even though they have apologised in the past for 'missing' something!

Much appreciate your time and effort, Cheers!

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Serious question...

 

Do you really feel it's absolutely, unequivocally worth trying to get this car going?

 

As for me, it sounds very much passed it & sometimes; you just have to say enough's enough and move on

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7 minutes ago, d_a_n1979 said:

Serious question...

 

Do you really feel it's absolutely, unequivocally worth trying to get this car going?

 

As for me, it sounds very much passed it & sometimes; you just have to say enough's enough and move on

It depends on how much it would cost after a garage has inspected it and given their verdict. If it turns out to be prohibitively expense then I'll have to sell it for parts or repair instead. That would be a shame because as far as I know it's the only surviving E39 M sport, in Imola Red with AC Schnitzer styling as part of the original (first owner) purchase. I have never seen another one despite looking during the last ten years and asking around forums like this one! BMW CC of GB did a valuation on it in 2014 with 113.000 miles on the clock for £4000. It's still got 113,000 miles on the clock! The main thing I had done was to have the AC split rims professionally refurbished with new tyres in 2017, these sets of wheels are on Ebay occasionally for £2500.Mines just gathering dust inside the house. It was owned by the manager of BMW Ryedale, (after being their show car on a spinning turntable), then the under manager had it, and then George Champ. chairmen of North East division of the BMW CC of GB had it for a while,  but he was too ill to maintain it properly so sold it to me on the cheap because he wanted a quick sale. Now I'm in the same position unfortunately.

near side view 2013.07.03.jpeg

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Looks like a nice E39 in picture. About fuel, you don't need to flush anything, just getting out as much as possible and adding fresh fuel should work. Fuel being evaporated won't clog up anything, because it's still a clean liquid, just less flammable, unless there's a lot of dirt in system, but then even with fresh fuel you might be experiencing problems. If thank is nearly empty, just fill it with 20l of fresh fuel and give it a go. 

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8 hours ago, thedocACSV8 said:

It depends on how much it would cost after a garage has inspected it and given their verdict. If it turns out to be prohibitively expense then I'll have to sell it for parts or repair instead. That would be a shame because as far as I know it's the only surviving E39 M sport, in Imola Red with AC Schnitzer styling as part of the original (first owner) purchase. I have never seen another one despite looking during the last ten years and asking around forums like this one! BMW CC of GB did a valuation on it in 2014 with 113.000 miles on the clock for £4000. It's still got 113,000 miles on the clock! The main thing I had done was to have the AC split rims professionally refurbished with new tyres in 2017, these sets of wheels are on Ebay occasionally for £2500.Mines just gathering dust inside the house. It was owned by the manager of BMW Ryedale, (after being their show car on a spinning turntable), then the under manager had it, and then George Champ. chairmen of North East division of the BMW CC of GB had it for a while,  but he was too ill to maintain it properly so sold it to me on the cheap because he wanted a quick sale. Now I'm in the same position unfortunately.

near side view 2013.07.03.jpeg

 

Overall it looked a lovely car; but how does it look now?

 

And it's value now will only be once it's fixed & fully running and in good condition

 

My thoughts are that you'd be out of pocket more trying to fix it than you would if you were to fix it & then sell it

 

You could look to sell the alloys & use those funds towards fixing the car. You can soon pick up a set of Style 66s for c£250 etc

 

Unless you really want to keep the car through sentimental views etc; it could be worth balancing the costs, as said above; and then work out what's going to be best

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3 hours ago, Ray112 said:

Looks like a nice E39 in picture. About fuel, you don't need to flush anything, just getting out as much as possible and adding fresh fuel should work. Fuel being evaporated won't clog up anything, because it's still a clean liquid, just less flammable, unless there's a lot of dirt in system, but then even with fresh fuel you might be experiencing problems. If thank is nearly empty, just fill it with 20l of fresh fuel and give it a go. 

"just get out as much (old fuel) as possible".

How? ....there is no plug in the tank- apparently, i.e. its sealed plastic, no drain plug! Nightmare! LOL!

Also, how about a fuel cleaning additive like those for fuel injectors? As it runs through the system it apparently cleans the fuel system too?

Many thanks!

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1 hour ago, d_a_n1979 said:

 

Overall it looked a lovely car; but how does it look now?

 

And it's value now will only be once it's fixed & fully running and in good condition

 

My thoughts are that you'd be out of pocket more trying to fix it than you would if you were to fix it & then sell it

 

You could look to sell the alloys & use those funds towards fixing the car. You can soon pick up a set of Style 66s for c£250 etc

 

Unless you really want to keep the car through sentimental views etc; it could be worth balancing the costs, as said above; and then work out what's going to be best

Now it doesn't look like that anymore! The paint needs a professional restoration by a proper paint correction specialist and its now got the pepper pot style alloys so that I can move it around on a flat bed truck! LOL!

"My thoughts are that you'd be out of pocket more trying to fix it than you would if you were to fix it & then sell it".

I don't fully comprehend your meaning 'here' - sorry!

I'll certainly consider your advice before making any more decisions!

Well, I could say "buy these wheels for £2500 and get a free car"? LOL! Cheers!

BMW wheels 26.08.21.jpg

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