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Eddles

2010 F11 brake judder - figure out which brake or could it be the DMF?

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My car has now started juddering under braking, my first thought is to replace the discs & pads, however would a faulty DMF cause juddering under braking? The DMF on my car is wearing out, has been juddering in 1st gear for 18 months, so I'm not sure if it would also judder when braking?

If it's definitely the brakes, how do I figure out which end the brakes are juddering - the front or the rear? Or could it be the hub?

Advice greatly appreciated!

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Where do you feel the judder?

 

If its via the steering wheel its more likely a suspension component is worn or if its felt thru the pedal its more likely the brakes.

 

Strip the brakes and clean up everything, particularly the caliper cradle where the pads slide.  Make sure the mating face between the hub and disc is spotlessly clean and likewise between the disc and alloy wheel hub.  Lubricate the sliding points of the pads on the cradle with a brake grease.

 

Most of the braking is done by the front axle.  As the cruise uses the rear brakes to slow, get up to speed on cruise and then quickly slow the car via the cruise which should then operate the rear brakes only, again feel for the source of the vibration under cruise braking.

 

Could just be your brakes are wearing.

 

While you have the front wheels off, have a poke about the suspension bushes and joints for any excessive movement.

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Fantastic reply, thank you so much!

 

So I've had a drive, I don't really feel the brake judder through either the pedal or the steering wheel - more through the seat feeling the car juddering.  That said, after testing different pedal pressure, I found I do feel some juddering through the pedal, and the steering wheel is rock solid.

 

I also got up to speed, set the cruise control and turned it down, like you said, the car juddered exactly the same as if I was pushing the brake pedal.  I presume it means all discs needs replacing?

 

It definitely isn't the failing DMF causing the judder under braking?

 

Also, how do I check for excessive movement in the suspension bushes & joints?

 

The best way forward would be to just replace the front discs, and see how it is, and if the judder's still there, replace the rear discs?

 

Thank you SO much again for your superb reply!

Edited by Eddles

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It could just be that your brakes are wearing and needing replacement anyway.   I would have thought that a failing DMF would be more apparent while on the power.  To rule out the DMF, repeat what you did before but dip the clutch or put it in Neutral while braking.  Thinking for a moment, that might work when in cruise as in the (E60 not sure on F10 but more than likely) manuals I've driven with cruise it automatically disengages when you dip the clutch.


Inspect the pads for friction material thickness, anything below 4mm I would replace IMHO.  BMW allow a minimum pad friction thickness of 3.7mm. Also check the edges of the disc for a lip, if you can feel a lip then they are wearing.  BMW discs are allowed to wear down by 2.4mm from their new thickness.  So a lip of a 1.2 mm or so and they are worn. This is not the figure that you may see etched/stamped on the disc hub, that is the minimum thickness of disc to which you can fit new pads too which is a wear of 1.6mm from their new thickness.  Your 530d may have 30 mm thick discs or it might have 36mm thick discs as an upgrade.
 

What mileage is on the car and do you know if and when the brakes were previously replaced?  I only got 50k out of my front discs and pads and rear pads are known to wear out every ~30-35k due to cruise control using only the rears to slow the car. 

To check suspension wear,

 

#1 Jack up each wheel and grasp it at 12 o’clock and 6 o’clock positions and and try and rock it about a horizontal axis. Any wear in the suspension components will be felt, particularly if at the wheel end. 

 

#2 as #1 but grasp wheel at 3 and 9 o’clock positions and rock it about a vertical axis. This will confirm wear in the track rod joints. But you will also be able to turn the wheel as if it’s being turned by the steering wheel so make sure it’s not that movement you feel. 
 

#3 remove each wheel and using a large screwdriver or pinch/pry bar, lever each inner suspension joint where it meets the subframe. The arm can rock/twist slightly but it should not be able to move much in the direction/line of the bolt going thru it or in any direction perpendicular to the direction/line of the bolt. I hope I've explained that o.k.
 

A slight shimmy of the steering wheel felt under braking or light clonking noises is normally a sign of a worn suspension bushes or balljoint on the front axle.  Classic BMW 5 series issues I’m afraid, it’s the trade off for having a big barge that handles well. They wear out their suspension components every 70-80k especially with big/wide wheels. 
 

Inspect your brakes and take it from there. 

 

Edited by 535i Andrew
Brake specs added.

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My car is annoying me again with the whole brake judder scenario and after a trip to Scotland and Cornwall recently, to the point, if I don't get it resolved I'll be getting rid of the car it's that frustrating.

 

My issue is when you just press the brake say about 10/20% you can hear it sort of knocking/judder and then as you press the pedal down further it stops that issue and brakes fine - so almost like the initial bite,  it doesn't start straight away but maybe 2 mins into the journey.

Also, the car isn't happy around the 70-80mph area on the motorway, juddering from the front/ slight vibration, and when that speed is exceeded it calms down again. 

 

Previous things tried to try to fix the issue were...

  • The front/rear disc and pads were getting low so they were replaced
  • Wheel alignment / balancing all checked
  • 4 new tyers 
  • lower arms were replaced as it was showing as needing to be done on the MOT 
  • wheels have been refurbed & powder-coated and the mating face is all clear
  • Even tried a friend's set of wheels and made no difference

When the lower arms were replaced recently I asked the garage who I trust to check everything over ball joints, suspension, and so on and he said it was all in good condition and couldn't see/feel anything wrong. 

 

I do have a few other trips planned and I'm already starting to dread the journey which is a real shame as when the 5 are set up right they are so smooth and comfortable. 

Edited by roundy

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On 23/08/2021 at 09:53, roundy said:

My car is annoying me again with the whole brake judder scenario and after a trip to Scotland and Cornwall recently, to the point, if I don't get it resolved I'll be getting rid of the car it's that frustrating.

 

My issue is when you just press the brake say about 10/20% you can hear it sort of knocking/judder and then as you press the pedal down further it stops that issue and brakes fine - so almost like the initial bite,  it doesn't start straight away but maybe 2 mins into the journey.

Also, the car isn't happy around the 70-80mph area on the motorway, juddering from the front/ slight vibration, and when that speed is exceeded it calms down again. 

 

Previous things tried to try to fix the issue were...

  • The front/rear disc and pads were getting low so they were replaced
  • Wheel alignment / balancing all checked
  • 4 new tyers 
  • lower arms were replaced as it was showing as needing to be done on the MOT 
  • wheels have been refurbed & powder-coated and the mating face is all clear
  • Even tried a friend's set of wheels and made no difference

When the lower arms were replaced recently I asked the garage who I trust to check everything over ball joints, suspension, and so on and he said it was all in good condition and couldn't see/feel anything wrong. 

 

I do have a few other trips planned and I'm already starting to dread the journey which is a real shame as when the 5 are set up right they are so smooth and comfortable. 

 

Have you replaced the rubber bushes/housing that the brake calliper sliding pins sit in? These wear over time and can cause a judder/creak on the initial bite & slow speed braking. 

 

Is the juddering felt through the steering wheel/pedal/box/seat? Does it sounds mechanical or could it be a loose undertray vibrating/slapping the underside of the car. 

Edited by dj1233

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Definitely not the undertray but I'll get the rubber bushes/housing checked this week, im going to replace the front brake discs and pads this week for some ATE's to remove the rudder.

 

Ii did notice some wear on the one front tyes so i have a place near me that's got a good reputation for alignment / Road force etc. 

 

If the above doesn't get rid of my issues i'll sell the car!

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Touchwood, my car is running perfectly after new front disc/pads, 4 new tyres and hunter alignment.

 

Following issues are no longer present - 

  • Brake judder when first pressing the brake pedal
  • under 30mph i had a drone noise which was coming from the front
  • Vibration / not smooth driving at around 80mhp also gone.  

Hope it last given my recent luck.

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Roundy i feel your pain. 
 

somesort of driveshaft “doughnut” was failing, that never helped. 
 

my exact problems, exactly the same as your. I changed the frond disk and pads and hunter alignment, all good for 3000 miles and started up again. 
 

its going in Monday for a full suspension check. Something is clunky on speed bumps. And a little knock somewhere upfront. 

 

So bloody frustrating this. 

 

 

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On 22/09/2021 at 13:32, Bez said:

Roundy i feel your pain. 
 

somesort of driveshaft “doughnut” was failing, that never helped. 
 

my exact problems, exactly the same as your. I changed the frond disk and pads and hunter alignment, all good for 3000 miles and started up again. 
 

its going in Monday for a full suspension check. Something is clunky on speed bumps. And a little knock somewhere upfront. 

 

So bloody frustrating this. 

 

 

This is what I'm hoping doesn't happen, if it does it's bye-bye for mine.

 

 

 

 

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