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gambit

Brake juddering!!! Yes I know...another one!

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This problem seems so common in these vehicles it is alarming.

 

I thought I'd start a separate thread after reading so many others only so you have the history in order to possibly help.  

 

In late 2017 I replaced the front pads further to wear warning coming up.  First time ever came up at about 58k miles.  I got my own pads Mintex and an independent did the work.  Now, this indy said he had much difficulty taking off the locking wheel nut, on the front NS wheel so much so he spent quite a few hours trying to do it.  I am not sure what he tried to do to get it off but I know he even tried solder at one point which has enlarged the whole on the alloy where the nut goes in.  Anyway he managed to get it off and complete the job.    4 or 5 weeks later I noticed juddering in the brakes and felt through the steering wheel which I was very surprised about.  It was mild to start and got progressively annoying until it was felt every time from about 40mph down to 0.

 

Unfortunately I did not get round to repairing this for a while and it was only until April 2019 that I did.  This time it was a bmw indy who said the discs were slightly warped and under required thickness so advised both front disc and pad replacement.  All was well until about July 2019 when the juddering started up again.  This time the juddering was more concentrated at between 30 -40 mph and not at higher or lower speeds.  The indy felt it could not be the discs or pads again this time, which I accepted.  He then diagnosed it was the two front control arms and this work was carried out in   These were then replaced in March 2020.  He alleges there was too much play in the control arms and sent vids but, and I am not expert, the videos don't appear to highlight this very well or it perhaps needs at trained eye?  In any case they don't appear to be moving that much.  Still, I took his word for it and had them done.  The problem disappeared and at all speeds...for a while.

 

Now in June this year the juddering returned aghhhhh!  Pulling my hair out here!  The judder now happens between 50 and 30 mph.  It starts lightly at 50, gets worse 40 and between 40 and 30 is quite pronounced. After 30 it eases off and cannot be really felt.  I am just sick of this now.  Had a brake specialist do brake fluid and he said juddering is so common in BMWs he is reluctant to get involved as it could be another thing and not the one he says.  He has advised to get the run off checked (no expert on whatever that means) when I go for an MOT which happens to be due very soon, and try to find any imbalance in any of the wheel to eliminate if it is disc related although he very much doubts this for such new discs.  He did say the current discs and pads on the front NS (he only looked at this one) where I believed the problem was looked in very good condition, although he could not see the inner side of the discs.  

 

Given the above and more specific issues I wonder if anyone has resolved this or come across the same problems?  I really would very much appreciate your help. 

 

Many thanks

G

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I too have a judder comes and goes from what i read following factors results in brake judder.

 

  • Being gentle with brakes leaves particles on discs makes them feel juddery, so doing occasional sharpish brakes (when safe to do so) helps.
  • Another issue is that alloy wheels work as heatsink which cools the brakes if alloys got refurbished at some point and if they painted the surface where it meets to hub, the discs cant get rid of the heat and results it them warping in very short time.
  • one other factor is that whoever does the brake job they really need to ensure all meeting surfaces cleaned properly especially  where disc meeting the hub.
  • Another one i read is overtightened wheels can cause warping to discs too therefore ensuring wheels are tightened to correct torque is important. 
  • Bedding in process also needs to be followed is the final one i can remember.

Hope this helps.

Edited by F10er

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Hi F10er - many thanks!

 

Did you say in one thread that hard braking eliminated it for you?  Or, has it gone away only to return so not properly eliminated?  I just want it gone forever - lol who doesn't. It really irks me so much! I drive my dads merc and his brakes are so smooth and never an issue so you forget about them whenever driving.  I've seen brake cleaners in Halfords etc - does this do anything at all and should I even bother?

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Hi no it comes back again but my front brakes were done by the main dealer, who checked it again later on to say it was fine but could of been the wheel balancing which wasnt true. Mine is not really bad thats why i didnt pursue it a lot and those brakes been on there for nearly 60k now. I would really read the thread about brake judder as i think it was resolved on that thread. 

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5 minutes ago, F10er said:

Hi no it comes back again but my front brakes were done by the main dealer, who checked it again later on to say it was fine but could of been the wheel balancing which wasnt true. Mine is not really bad thats why i didnt pursue it a lot and those brakes been on there for nearly 60k now. I would really read the thread about brake judder as i think it was resolved on that thread. 

 

 

mmm there are so many, and on different bmw forums.  Do you know which one exactly?

 

I'm hoping my symptoms are identical to someone else who found a fix.

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Thanks again.

 

Yes I think bedding in now is too late but I did bed them as necessary at the time they were replaced.  One thing however that concerns me about bedding in of all brakes is, isn't it actually futile when the first person to start hammering your brakes is the mechanic and he won't care about bedding in properly just about them working fine?  No one knows how the mechanic has been braking with them, but I doubt he's been following the instructions in the thread by the book!

 

Secondly I have not had my alloys powder coated or anything else for that matter - is the suggestion that the alloys are to blame, as wow they would be costly to replace!?

 

So, I don't think its any of the above and my hunch about this after some time has been this, if any of you would please care to comment on and opine on:

 

The indy who did just the pads the first ever time (who had difficulty taking OS front wheel off (apologies I said NS in first post)) was a different mechanic to who has dealt with the brakes to date.  Now, I was referred to this guy, the first indy, though my father and I went along with his recommendation.  Something says I wish I had not now.  My feeling is that when my father told me he had spent all day trying to remove the OS wheel and used solder, hammering etc it got me wondering - did this ***hole somehow mess up, even in mm, the inner workings of everything holding the pads and disc in place - in  this case the hub.  My feeling is that new pads don't start juddering in 4 weeks do they?  Also he should have recommended replacing discs at the time too.  Still, I had both replaced together afterwards.

 

Anyway, it's besides the point, as what I believe is that he has effed up the hub through being hell bent getting the wheel off, and everything after has therefore not sat properly or aligned ever.  Does anyone think there is a strong case for this?  I will be asking the MOT place to check run off on the OS front using rolling road citing the above history and symptoms, however if it run off exists I understand they cannot distinguish if it is the hub, or just the disc.  Is that correct?  Do you then hedge your bets and just go with hub, or the the hub, discs and new pads again!?  Can this be examined a further way?  I may be wrong anyway if as the other threads say it could be the wheels - don't forget this  first indy also left an enlarged entry whole for the wheel locking nut through whatever tool he used, is that a potential issue.  I can post a pic if needed.

 

Many thanks

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3 hours ago, gambit said:

Yes I think bedding in now is too late

You can bed your discs in at any time, and as has been mentioned, the easiest way to do it is to find a quiet stretch of fast road and do a few safe emergency stops. I’ve posted a number of times on this forum the meaning of warped discs and an article by Moss motoring about how to fix it for free. The topic comes up so regularly on here.

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On 12/11/2020 at 16:01, GeeJayJoe said:

Did you know...... that if you do an emergency stop the hazard lights come on. 

Only if you come to a complete stop...

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things to check. firstly the quality of the control arm fitted was it OEM or patterm? if the problem went away from sometime and came back it suggests they've failed again,

 

however my angle of attack would be to

balance all four wheels.

get the car correctly aligned (by professionals not a back street garage with tracking equipment most of them don't even know it needs to be weighted)

and replace the discs and pads (you can get the measured for warpage if you find a local engineer)

 

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Have you tried simply removing and re-fitting the wheels at home to the right torque? It could be something as simple as a stretched bolt which, when the wheel has been removed and re-fitted, is being tightened up and takes alittle while to become slightly loose again. Just a thought

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On 11/21/2020 at 10:11 PM, sanjx said:

Have you tried simply removing and re-fitting the wheels at home to the right torque? It could be something as simple as a stretched bolt which, when the wheel has been removed and re-fitted, is being tightened up and takes alittle while to become slightly loose again. Just a thought

Also, maybe swap front and rear wheels

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Thanks for these suggestions.  I am keen to try the bedding in process again, it's finding somewhere safe first.  What speed do I get up to? 

On 21/11/2020 at 22:11, sanjx said:

Have you tried simply removing and re-fitting the wheels at home to the right torque? It could be something as simple as a stretched bolt which, when the wheel has been removed and re-fitted, is being tightened up and takes alittle while to become slightly loose again. Just a thought

 

Can you put this in a bit more layman terms please.

 

Many thanks.

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So to throw in my 2 pence worth, i had my discs replaced twice and the judder was still present, had control arms replaced, still there... new Mtec performance discs, still there, 4 new tyres ( with fitter using a drill and wire brush to clean mating surface ) vibration gone... so either tyres were issue, or mating surface was issue... worth going to a tyre place and having them remove and refit after a clean and see what you get

 

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On 23/11/2020 at 16:06, gambit said:

Thanks for these suggestions.  I am keen to try the bedding in process again, it's finding somewhere safe first.  What speed do I get up to? 

 

Can you put this in a bit more layman terms please.

 

Many thanks.

In laymans terms, try jacking the car up at home, take off the wheel and put the wheel back on using a torque wrench to tighten the bolts and see if this  fixes it

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