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JFREEZY

Rear Wheels Locked Up

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Evening, 

 

Any theory or knowledge would be greatly appreciated. 

 

So sunday on the way home from mrs house, going through a village about 30mph, loud bang like i hit something and my rear wheels locked up. Wouldn’t move, put it in R and it moved back so put it in D and it appeared to drive fine. Slight gear box leak. 

 

Got it recovered on monday back to my mrs area and had a garage look at it but couldn’t actually get it on their ramp as it’s on coilovers, tried to drive it back today with the mindset that hopefully something actually breaks so i know what it is. 

 

Alas here we are, about 40mph today on way home the same bang, transmission fault on iDrive but no lock up it just sounded like a bag of spanners in a washing machine from the rear of the car. 

 

Pulled over, turned car off to have a look nothing obvious and no leaks. Started car up again no transmission iDrive fault, made a grinding noise for a bit in D and R but then stopped. Now it will select gears, go in to park etc but engine will rev in D or R but not move. If i press park while in D at say 1200 revs you can hear the gearbox trying to clamp until it goes back to idle, essentially pressing park will slow the revs down and put it in park. 

 

Got it recovered and noticed grease all over the exhaust and have attached a picture of passenger side rear drive shaft CV boot. Also oil on the floor unsure if gearbox oil or diff oil, clear and very thin. 

 

Also about 5/6 weeks ago was coming off of a motorway junction and heard a ticking/clunking every rotation of the wheel from the rear when turning left or right. After 10 mins it went away, just extra info if it’s related. 

 

What do you guys think were talking here? Is the driveshaft the product of something else or is the actual issue itself? Driveshaft? Diff? Gearbox?

 

Thanks all!

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To check the diff jack up the rear of the car and spin the wheels by hand. You'll soon see/hear if it's dead.

 

Looks like the driveshaft is the result of something going wrong, and not the drive shaft being the main fault. 

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@dj1233 so do you think maybe there’s a tooth floating around in the diff and the first time it locked up the shafts took it, but the second time the shaft snapped?

 

what about gear box? if that was gone i’d know surely, mechanical grinding etc and permanent idrive fault?

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It could be a number of things, but it should be clearly obvious it things are not all right with the simple test. 

 

I am not too familiar with the autoboxes and what they sound like when they go wrong, depending on what fails. All i can say is usually they're a pretty penny to fix. . . . .

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Not familiar with autos either but my thought would be the torque converter.

 

I'd say the first thing to check is where that thin oil is leaking from, if it's from the gearbox it would make sense that the TC would be having issues. I'd also agree with @dj1233 in getting it up and having a feel for the diff,  if nothing is obvious my next step would be to drain the oil in the diff and gearbox into a clean container and looking for metal among it.

 

The noise you were hearing with the ticking/clunking was probably the inner CV. I think the iDrive picks up on low tyre pressures with a slower rotation of that wheel (rather than sensors at each valve) so I couldn't rule it out picking up on a sloppy CV joint - obviously it needs a new boot at the least.

 

Hope you get it sorted!

Edited by FLX

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@FLX Thanks for reply, what you’re saying makes sense i did have a low tyre pressure actually when it was making a ticking/clunking sound but that went away at the same time it stopped ticking. 

 

Could a drive shaft/CV joint on its own cause the rear ended to lock up? and would that and/or a diff cause a transmission fault to throw up on the idrive but not come up again after restart?

 

Also regarding the TC, i’m not 100% how they work. i understand essentially how they work but not the inner mechanicals of them. other than the issues described, even driving between first lock up and when it actually went, the car was behaving fine. How would a TC explain the spillage of oil from the box if it is that?

 

 

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I had a auto gearbox oil leak out once and it turned out to be the TC had failed. Dunno how it actually leaked though. This was a 1978 holden too, so the principle is still same but the modern boxes probably a "little" different inside.

 

Did both wheels lock or just one side? if it was a driveshaft id have thought the power would transfer to opposite wheel so youd get a side jolt rather than full lockup.

 

 

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3 hours ago, bmwmike said:

Did both wheels lock or just one side? if it was a driveshaft id have thought the power would transfer to opposite wheel so youd get a side jolt rather than full lockup.

 

This is what I was thinking too. With open diff the other side would continue spinning normally if the other side locked. If you are sure both rear wheels locked it must be caused by rear diff.

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When a CV joint went on my wifes old 944 it just failed to proceed no big bang or histrionics just lost drive.

 

You could place it in gear and it would just sit there spinning the shaft with the failed CV.

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yeah open diffs transfer torque to the side with the least resistance. Driveshaft lockup means the opposite side gets the torque. Driveshaft snap means that side gets the torque so the wheel side stops.

 

Hence why if both wheels locked up it must be a fault inside the diff or on the prop side (incl gearbox).

 

 

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Yeah i’m pretty sure both wheels locked up the first time, i’m assuming the diff just exploded the second time will obviously wait for garage to confirm in due course. 

 

What i’m wary of is the gearbox leak and all of the diff and shaft problems aren’t stemming from the box and killed the diff and shaft with it, or rather the diff has killed the shaft and now the box?

 

Supposedly the fact I can still select drive and rev it without moving would say that the planet gears are fine, and would suggest the diff is just spinning in itself? 

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Also just while i’m on topic, looking on RealOEM it says my final diff ratio is 2.65 but they’re few and far between. Are all the E60 diffs interchangeable and if so what ratio would work well? The car is 376bhp and 760nm so im assuming the lower ratio diffs would suffer more? 

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18 minutes ago, JFREEZY said:

Also just while i’m on topic, looking on RealOEM it says my final diff ratio is 2.65 but they’re few and far between. Are all the E60 diffs interchangeable and if so what ratio would work well? The car is 376bhp and 760nm so im assuming the lower ratio diffs would suffer more? 

 

So what are your vehicle specs?

 

Usual failure on these is the tab connecting small intermediate gears together. If pinion and crown wheel are not damaged one alternative is to upgrade limited slip internals (Quaife of Wavetrack).

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UPDATE:

 

Good news and bad news.

 

Bad news is as follows; diff is completely dead and locked, prop shaft has ripped itself out, both drive shafts killed the CV joints and the actual bit inside the diff they attach too, one wheel bearing and to top it all off the diff has ripped itself off the subframe on one side and took some of the subframe with it. Proper killed the rear end haha. 

 

The good news is there’s plenty of low mileage newer pre LCI cars out there, will just buy a whole rear end and swap it out, 6 bolts, the shocks and prop shaft, job done. can get all my alignment issues sorted out while that’s out too. 

 

Could’ve been worse :D

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At least you know what's up with it now!

 

Shouldn't matter if it's a pre LCI or LCI, much of the parts are interchangable early to late on the E60. E61 uses different hubs due to airbags. Driveshafts, props and diffs vary in diameters and ratio between auto, manual the engine fitted, do a good bit of comparing part numbers before taking the plunge on one. The diff rear covers on LCIs don't seem to have the cooling fins either but they use the same subframes so can't see it being a big issue.

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@FLX Okay mate thanks for info, a lot of breakers out there are awful. Tried to get some 535d assemblers from a couple in london but by the time it got to it everything was in a million bits or missing parts. 

 

I just bought a whole assembly from a 2007 pre LCI auto 530d with 110k and 3 month guarantee at my local breakers. got the prop shaft as well so it’s just a case of swapping my 535d brakes over? I believe the diff is either 2.47 or 2.56 so i’m not a million miles away from 2.65 on mine. 

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@FLX I did just have a check on realOEM and everything is the same, shafts, bearings, etc apart from 2 differences. 

 

2.47 diff as opposed to 2.65, but surely the difference is minimal?

 

the prop shaft on the 535d is 1601mm and the 530d is 1603mm, but that’s only a 2mm difference. which one is better to use? surely 2mm is negligible?

Edited by JFREEZY

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Flex disc should take up that difference but it could cause it to fail early. Measure the flange on both the diffs to see they are the same, if they are it must be the gearbox that's slightly longer on the 535d. If the old prop was salvageable I'd be inclined to use it.

 

I think the change in ratio means it will lose a bit of torque and gain a bit of top speed, the ratio is on a sticker on top of the diff. Could be worth a try, not a huge job to swap it out if the change is too noticeable.

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It’s not long had a new flex disk so if it takes up the difference it should hold up?

 

Also if the new prop isn’t salvageable because of how they move the cars around, how to go about using the shorter prop? could you put a 1mm washer on the flex disc and use the disc itself to soak up the other 1mm?

 

I will check RealOEM to see if i can see if flanges are different on diffs

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@FLX i just double checked on RealOEM everything is the same apart from the actual diff ratio. All the locking nuts, rings and seals are the same even on the input side, should that say the flanges are the same?

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It could be that the flange into the diff has a slight difference hence the need for a change in length of the prop, if you could compare the measurements from the front subframe mounts to the flange face on the diff that may be where the difference came from, a steel rule across the flange face and another down to the subframe mount should confirm it. You've probably seen theres no listing for the internals of the diff. They both appear to use the same auto box, gearbox mount and we know the subframes are the same. It could just be overthinking it, I very much doubt they made the whole car 2mm shorter for the facelift! As I said they appeared to revise the rear cover of the diff on the facelifts so they may have slightly different internals. It could be that there is a slight difference in diameters of the prop between the 530 and 535 so it's also worth checking, though it is length we're focusing on.

 

I'd ask for a look at the old prop to see where it was damaged, if it's the CV at the diff you could maybe just swap the 530d one onto it, same part numbers but the prop may be damaged there.

 

The flex disc has protrusions that fit into the counterbores on the driveshaft and gearbox. It's listing the 530d prop longer so you could face off and counterbore deeper to get the right length,  but you'd lose strength there. That or have the prop tube shortened and rebalanced - could be more expensive than sourcing another 535d prop.

 

Another option would be - depending on how much of the old 535d prop is useable - to measure it and find where the difference in length is compared to the 530d prop. Getting an accurate measurement at that length (depending on the tools available to you) might prove difficult, but you could use the shorter section of your old prop and the new one to get back to the right length. This would also require balancing it.

 

As I say I would check the measurements on the diff, if those are the same I'd fit the new 530d prop and see how you get on. If it looks like it's deflecting the flex disc forward you might need to consider other options then.

   
Edited by FLX

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@FLX That’s great info much appreciated, will discuss with the garage tomorrow when i pick up the subframe and drop it off. 

 

Might have had a stroke of good luck though, I just rang to double check some stuff on the sales invoice as it said 2007-2010. so asked if i could have the reg to check the production date to see if it was pre lci or lci, he couldn’t give me it but he did send me some pictures of the interior and sure enough it’s an lci interior. That could be good news as the lci 530d auto uses the same 2.65 diff as my 535d. 

 

What i find odd is that on realOEM it still lists a 1603mm prop compared to my 1601. Typo maybe?

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Isn't 530d auto with smaller TYP 188 rear differential compared to 535d with TYP 215? 530d manual has the same TYP 215 but with different ratio.

 

https://www.newtis.info/tisv2/a/en/e60-535d-lim/repair-manuals/33-rear-axle-rear-wheel-drive-guide/33-10-rear-axle-final-drive/5c6hd9I

Edited by Clavurion

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