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Phill20d

Speaker upgrade

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52 minutes ago, GaSelle said:

Please don´t talk to me, as if I were an idiot. I know what I´m doing, and your comparison is way off IMHO. To me it sounds like that you´ve never seen or heard the standard speakers, but trust me, an amp wouldn´t have improved the lack of tweeters - or the overall sound picture for that matter. The standard speakers are similar to the ones found in an Aygo. I tried the tweeters with the original speakers, and you´re wrong about that too. 

 

I don´t turn the bass up fully (why would I do that?) and the sound does not get flat when cranked up. You´re right, the system distorts when playing +90-95% of the volume, but so does the Hifi System in the F20. 

 

So to sum up: you´re right, that an amp would improve my current setup even more. And yes, the other systems has a more detailed EQ. But that´s the only thing you´re right about.

 

For the money spent, I´m very satisfied with the result.


Christ snowflake, when did I assume you are an idiot?
 

yes I have heard the standard set up, in a G30 as well as a variety of modern BMW’s. it is piss poor I don’t deny that, however, if you think an AMP would have not improved the speakers then you have no clue what you are talking about. 
 

I never told you to turn up the bass. But testing this way is the easiest method of seeing where you system tops out and what it can no longer handle. I guarantee your set up will distort (and badly at that) way lower than 90% because even the HK starts sounding poor below that. 
 

Matthew - who by the looks of his other posts on the forum is far more knowledgable than you or me - above has provided you with a far more detailed description of what the system is and why throwing money at high end hardware whilst attempting to power it with the equivalent of old cheese is a bad idea. Take any car, a basic 2000’s Clio and a whack in a aftermarket radio and this will sound better than stock because it amplify each channel at say 45w (4 x 45w for example) compared to the total 30w of the standard system. You have effectively taken around 400w of potential speaker power (judging by the partial upgrade) and using a 205w (claimed output) radio?

 

But sure, you know better. 


oh and btw, even the high end sound systems in F20/21’s are cut down versions so they will never sound as good in reality 

Edited by sjak92

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The standard speakers are that cheap/bad, that I wouldn´t bother fitting an amp to them.

 

I agree on, that fitting an amp to the current setup would improve things. The only amp 

I would consider fitting (if not going down the OEM route) was a Match, because you don´t

have to cut any wires.

 

The current setup sounds miles better, than the old setup. 

 

I spent less than £250.

 

I´m happy with the way it sounds now, and that´s what´s important to me.

 

The F20 Sound System might be cut down, but it has an amp - but does not play any louder

or better than the G30 without the amp.

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Having some knowledge in this side of things - I’ll just stick my two-penneth in here....

 

@sjak92 you’re sort of right in what you’re saying, but adding an amplifier to the standard speakers wouldn’t help unless it was fitted with a HPF (high pass filter) and LPF (low pass filter) and you’re able to adjust it so the higher and mid range frequencies go to the mid speaker and the lower frequencies go to the bass speaker. The lack of a tweeter would be the hinderance as the main issue as the mids won’t be able to handle the higher frequencies, and standard subs the low frequencies and will still sound sh1t, amplifier or not. The limiting factor in the standard setup is the quality of the drivers. Even upgrading to a good quality driver and running them off the standard head unit would yield great gains in terms of basic sound quality, as you’ll have a crossover which will split the signals between the mid and the tweeter - so what @GaSelle has done would sound much better at average volumes. 

 

The need for an Amp really arises when running super high quality drivers e.g. what would be fitted to the B&W system, and the need to control which frequencies are going to which speakers. This allows much higher volumes without distortion, which is where the aforementioned filters come into play on the amp. 
 

 

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^^^ What he said.

The basic speakers are very low quality and coupled with the lack of tweeters and a decent crossover are the main reason for the poor sound quality. The control over the cones is just too poor to manage the range of frequencies they are required to handle. As @Back2Beemer points out the standard low-frequency units are equally poor, but for most people it’s the mid-range that matters most (*). The issue of an amplifier is really more to do with multichannel distribution ideally in conjunction with an equaliser to manage the problem that the car is a far from ideal acoustic environment however cleverly the speakers are positioned. Even then if upgrading, how you actually achieve a proper response outside of an audio lab is a bit of a challenge, but at least you can fiddle to get it how you like it.

 

All amplifiers distort a little (some a lot) but these days the quality of even a cheap amplifier at volumes well below its limit is pretty good. The head unit’s output is plenty unless you aim to become deaf and (in my opinion) is even plenty to give adequate dynamic range for good music at a reasonable listening volume. The main distortions from the basic system far and away are from the speakers, so replacing them will give a bigger improvement than any other changes you could make.

 

(*) for me even a tweeter is getting to be a luxury as I’m into my 70s and I can hardly hear anything up there now :sad: .

Edited by Boba

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Blimey it’s all got a little heated since I last contributed. I am not going to add any more ‘knowledge’ just yet as most of it seems to be covered. I am no expert either but I think I probably understand the problem of the base set up.

 

So I am going to contribute by giving an example. I have a Match PP52 DSP on its way to me and I intend fitting it to the standard speakers. Not that I think this is the answer as the lack of tweeters will always be a massive compromise, however I am curious what a bit of sound tuning with a DSP could achieve along with a little more amplification.

 

Speakers wise I am still researching this, true plug and play options are highly limited and expensive. I have not ruled out B&W tweeters and mids in the door but I think aftermarket is most likely. It could be coaxial Etons keeping budget reasonable.

Edited by Geobob

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Any thoughts on these ones folks? 
https://rover.ebay.com/rover/0/0/0?mpre=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.ebay.co.uk%2Fulk%2Fitm%2F274098144035

Seems like a good starting point. 
You can add an amp too, I noticed there are no rear speakers with this, but maybe not worth bothering with perhaps? 
I did a  Bavsound upgrade in my old car (E39) which also came with silk tweeters and speakers, and then I also had an amp upgrade of the existing amp unit, and sounded pretty decent in the end. 

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I think this looks a reasonable set up, I am not worrying about the rears myself at the moment. I do feel this needs amplifying with a DSP because otherwise the gains in quality won’t be that great as the head unit equalisation and lack of power are going to be restrictive. I have been talking to this re-seller and they seem to know a bit about what they are selling.

 

Just to add, I am not yet sure which option is best with regards Eton and Match. The coaxial Etons seem good value meaning no spend on tweeter covers. So approx £100 (from Germany) plays £250 for components. 

Edited by Geobob

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11 hours ago, Geobob said:

I think this looks a reasonable set up, I am not worrying about the rears myself at the moment. I do feel this needs amplifying with a DSP because otherwise the gains in quality won’t be that great

I’ve read on forums over the years that some audiophiles completely ditch  rear speakers altogether, I’ve usually got more front than rear on the fader. 
I had a look at other items by the seller, they also do a DSP amp in another package, so I may go for that, plug and play always appeals to me. 
I would still like to add the tweeters, as I think that is what is missing the most in my car, when I did the Bavsound upgrade in the last car, which did have tweeters, the upgrade tweeters were really night and day for me. 

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Had a chat with a professional ICE guy and he is going to fit twin coaxial speakers in the front doors and according to him it will improve the sound no end, I will report back. I am not expecting the earth I know I am not going to get top notch sound but all I am after is that little bit more clarity top end.

Edited by Phill20d

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I will be interested in what brand you opt for and  also your thoughts on the results. I expect you will get an improvement but still to have a compromised sound due to the head unit equaliser.

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1 hour ago, Geobob said:

I will be interested in what brand you opt for and  also your thoughts on the results. I expect you will get an improvement but still to have a compromised sound due to the head unit equaliser.

Totally aware it’s not going to be B&O std but it will do for what I want, it’s just that little lift that’s needed

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I have been thinking about speakers over the last 24 hrs and I am considering fitting a tweeter and passive crossover which would then utilise the original speaker (which is basically a midrange anyway). I actually have bits and pieces of old kit in my garage collected over the years. I am considering mounting the tweeter in the current blank where the factory tweeter would go, thinking when car goes i’ll source some replacement  blanks. I can then possibly replace the mids at a later date.

 

I am not to worried about speakers not matching because I should be able to tune the DSP to deal with any frequency imbalance.

Edited by Geobob

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On 15/12/2019 at 18:21, Geobob said:

 

I am looking at a DSP amplifier. Probably a Match PP62 DSP


Out of interest where do you pick up the speaker connections for the basic setup? Do you need to go behind the head unit or is the wiring already routed to the back of the car as for the higher options with an amp? Looked at newtis but it’s as clear as mud. I’ve a tourer but likely the same layout.

 

Edited by Boba

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4 hours ago, Geobob said:

I have been thinking about speakers over the last 24 hrs and I am considering fitting a tweeter and passive crossover which would then utilise the original speaker (which is basically a midrange anyway). I actually have bits and pieces of old kit in my garage collected over the years. I am considering mounting the tweeter in the current blank where the factory tweeter would go, thinking when car goes i’ll source some replacement  blanks. I can then possibly replace the mids at a later date.

 

I am not to worried about speakers not matching because I should be able to tune the DSP to deal with any frequency imbalance.


If you’re going to take the time to take the door panels off you may as well replace the mids - they are woeful. It will sound night and day different with a good set of coaxials, or even better if you fit a set of components. 

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1 hour ago, Back2Beemer said:


If you’re going to take the time to take the door panels off you may as well replace the mids - they are woeful. It will sound night and day different with a good set of coaxials, or even better if you fit a set of components. 

 

I am thinking about this from the purpose of cost. I have kit in my garage not being used so I will try it out. I may even match up some B&W mids with the Hertz HT25 tweeters I already have controlled with the hertz passive crossover.

6 hours ago, Boba said:


Out of interest where do you pick up the speaker connections for the basic setup? Do you need to go behind the head unit or is the wiring already routed to the back of the car as for the higher options with an amp? Looked at newtis but it’s as clear as mud. I’ve a tourer but likely the same layout.

 

Got the PP52 in the end off eBay used and for less than half the cost. The loom with it is long enough to get under the front seats and I have the connector in the link to make it plug and play. 

 

https://www.audiotec-fischer.de/en/match/adaptors-harnesses/pp-ac-13a

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5 hours ago, Back2Beemer said:


If you’re going to take the time to take the door panels off you may as well replace the mids - they are woeful. It will sound night and day different with a good set of coaxials, or even better if you fit a set of components. 


This is exactly where the Pro guy said to go the front door speakers are junk and best results for the money is to change for Twin coaxials which is what I am going to do

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I’ve opted for the Match by Audiotec Fischer stage 4 upgrade, which has tweeters, front components, rear coax, under seat subs, cross overs and DSP amp. 
I got a good deal from Audiotec Fischer UK and also some free sound matting thrown in. 
I went with them for their customer service. 
This is not high end compared to some, I know, but should be a vast improvement over the base stereo currently fitted. 
All plug and play which will be good and the DSP can be pre programmed for the car. 

New unmarked tweeter mounts are on their way from Cotswold. 

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5 hours ago, Back2Beemer said:

@Phill20d @Geobob

 

If you’re looking for a really good aftermarket brand that won’t break the bank, then have a look at Infinity. I used to fit them to cars all the time and the quality is very good. They’re made by Harman industries too. 

Will do

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10 hours ago, Geobob said:

 

How much have they charged you for these out of interest please?

£88.30 for the pair including delivery. 
HK mounts are the same price if you want those. 

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14 hours ago, ally said:

I’ve opted for the Match by Audiotec Fischer stage 4 upgrade, which has tweeters, front components, rear coax, under seat subs, cross overs and DSP amp. 
I got a good deal from Audiotec Fischer UK and also some free sound matting thrown in. 
I went with them for their customer service. 
This is not high end compared to some, I know, but should be a vast improvement over the base stereo currently fitted. 
All plug and play which will be good and the DSP can be pre programmed for the car. 

New unmarked tweeter mounts are on their way from Cotswold. 


These get very good reviews! I would bet this will sound better than the factory fit HK system. 

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Newbie here. I've had my G30 for a year now and recently found this forum. I've been following this thread with some interest because my car has only the basic stereo system which I'd like to improve on.

I didn't realise it would be so bad or I would have probably specified a better system to start with. When I was buying I test drove several cars and I was more interested in how they drove, how they felt etc. and honestly didn't think to sit and try out the sound system with a CD or anything, only had the radio on in the background.

But after a year I think it is truly dreadful. I can't believe that BMW would sell a car so poorly equipped. There's just no life in it at all - little bass and absolutely no treble so that decent music sounds muffled just like a medium wave radio station. My last VW sounded immeasurably better and cost half the price. Also if you turn the sound up to quite loud it distorts harshly. It doesn't even need to be particularly loud on classical because if its loud enough to hear the quiet parts the loud parts overload and distort. Absolute, absolute trash!!

I'm not at all into ripping the car to pieces but going on all the comments it seems as though replacing the door speakers and fitting tweeters would be the best I can do. It seems as though this should be reasonably straightforwards. Volume-wise I think I will have to just put up with things as there's no way I can run new wiring the length of the car and pull the dash apart to wire in an amplifier, and I'm not about to have some youngster from a car shop hashing it thanks very much.

What a shame with such a nice car just to save maybe 2 or 3 hundred pounds at build time!

Edited by AnthonyG30

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2 hours ago, AnthonyG30 said:

Volume-wise I think I will have to just put up with things as there's no way I can run new wiring the length of the car and pull the dash apart to wire in an amplifier

Actually the pulling the dash apart looks extremely simple, there are Youtube videos showing how this can be done. Granted I have some experience with home mechanics on cars but the videos really do show how easy it can be. Normally I would not consider surgery to such a new vehicle but the sound is so dreadful I have to do this for my own sanity in the absence of being able to specify a much better set up (due to budget and buying nearly new).

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