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Restart E39 530d Sport Touring

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13 hours ago, BMW_pnz said:

That images tell tottaly oposite. With regulator de energized the maximum flow goes to return...I do mot understand ...

 

 


This got me too at first. My local Bosch tech told me that there are closed-normal and open-normal valves, depending on application. That diagram also shows a low-pressure pump, which is not applicable to our pumps.

On BMW, and Duramax, the volume control valve is open-normal. Meaning that if you de-energize it, it will return to an open state. In an open state it allows max fuel to the high pressure circuit.

I suggest you test this to understand it fully. Pull the volume control vale, energize and de-energize it to see when it is opening and closing. With the control valve in the pump, pressurise the inlet and look at the return flow with the valve energized and de-energize - you want minimum return.

Read up on the other M57 installs, there is a lot of info on ecuconnections, and a few videos on youtube. All of them have the valve de-energized. Also, search for diagnosing CP3 problems.

This picture is from further back in this thread. The left shows my initial working setup, with the volume control valve disconnected. The right is with the ported blank installed.    
Pump.thumb.jpg.64f26fbdfd3a992f409bcbed03ea6040.jpg

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On 6/25/2021 at 12:35 PM, sinner said:


This got me too at first. My local Bosch tech told me that there are closed-normal and open-normal valves, depending on application. That diagram also shows a low-pressure pump, which is not applicable to our pumps.

On BMW, and Duramax, the volume control valve is open-normal. Meaning that if you de-energize it, it will return to an open state. In an open state it allows max fuel to the high pressure circuit.

I suggest you test this to understand it fully. Pull the volume control vale, energize and de-energize it to see when it is opening and closing. With the control valve in the pump, pressurise the inlet and look at the return flow with the valve energized and de-energize - you want minimum return.

Read up on the other M57 installs, there is a lot of info on ecuconnections, and a few videos on youtube. All of them have the valve de-energized. Also, search for diagnosing CP3 problems.

This picture is from further back in this thread. The left shows my initial working setup, with the volume control valve disconnected. The right is with the ported blank installed.    
Pump.thumb.jpg.64f26fbdfd3a992f409bcbed03ea6040.jpg

Ported blank with holes in it or without .it is a  big struggle for me to rezolve the pressure problems :( sorry if I bicame a stress for you but...there is no one to know better from you what the problems could be :( thank you verry much for all the help and support

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On 16/08/2019 at 13:27, sinner said:

.... The dummy has been cross drilled with four 2.5 mm diameter ports, and the central bore is 3.3 mm. This is the internal diameter of the spring inside the original valve, and the maximum the valve can be opened up to. Of course, I can increase the diameter of the bore as needed, but I doubt it will be.

valve_blank.thumb.jpg.c9a210cc4ce36359bb15ec5b06d47c60.jpg


 

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Hi all i have done upgrading the turbo with a hella actuator. So now it comes to the vnt map duty cycle change so this below is the current map

85    85    85    85    85    85    85    85    85    85
85    85    85    85    85    85    85    85    85    85
85    85    85    80    75    80    85    85    85    85
65    65    64    64    67    72    70    71    75    75
63    62    62    62    67    70    70    70    66    66
58    58    58    61    67    71    67    64    60    60
53    54    57    61    69    71    64    60    56    56
48    49    55    61    69    66    59    57    51    51
41    42    51    58    64    63    56    51    45    45
34    39    49    54    60    58    52    48    41    41
34    38    47    53    55    53    49    44    40    40
33    37    46    48    48    47    44    42    39    39
31    34    43    44    48    47    43    43    43    43
30    32    41    46    47    45    43    43    43    43
29    31    38    42    41    40    40    39    39    39
27    28    35    37    37    37    37    37    37    37

 

And it is advised to extend the lowest number 27 to 5 and highest number 85 to 95 right ?

So it should be something like this below

 

95    95    95    95    95    95    95    95    95    95
95    95    95    95    95    95    95    95    95    95
95    95    95    87    79    87    95    95    95    95
64    64    62    62    67    75    72    73    79    79
61    59    59    59    67    72    72    72    66    66
53    53    53    58    67    73    67    62    56    56
45    47    52    58    70    73    62    56    50    50
38    39    48    58    70    66    55    52    42    42
27    28    42    53    62    61    50    42    33    33
16    24    39    47    56    53    44    38    27    27
16    22    36    45    48    45    39    31    25    25
14    21    34    38    38    36    31    28    24    24
11    16    30    31    38    36    30    30    30    30
10    13    27    34    36    33    30    30    30    30
   8    11    22    28    27    25    25    24    24    24
   5      7    17    21    21    21    21    21    21    21

 

So any ideas about if this is right or not ?
 

 

Screenshot_20211001-083721_Excel.jpg

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On 10/1/2021 at 4:36 PM, Sagnak said:

Hi all i have done upgrading the turbo with a hella actuator. So now it comes to the vnt map duty cycle change so this below is the current map

85    85    85    85    85    85    85    85    85    85
85    85    85    85    85    85    85    85    85    85
85    85    85    80    75    80    85    85    85    85
65    65    64    64    67    72    70    71    75    75
63    62    62    62    67    70    70    70    66    66
58    58    58    61    67    71    67    64    60    60
53    54    57    61    69    71    64    60    56    56
48    49    55    61    69    66    59    57    51    51
41    42    51    58    64    63    56    51    45    45
34    39    49    54    60    58    52    48    41    41
34    38    47    53    55    53    49    44    40    40
33    37    46    48    48    47    44    42    39    39
31    34    43    44    48    47    43    43    43    43
30    32    41    46    47    45    43    43    43    43
29    31    38    42    41    40    40    39    39    39
27    28    35    37    37    37    37    37    37    37

 

And it is advised to extend the lowest number 27 to 5 and highest number 85 to 95 right ?

So it should be something like this below

 

95    95    95    95    95    95    95    95    95    95
95    95    95    95    95    95    95    95    95    95
95    95    95    87    79    87    95    95    95    95
64    64    62    62    67    75    72    73    79    79
61    59    59    59    67    72    72    72    66    66
53    53    53    58    67    73    67    62    56    56
45    47    52    58    70    73    62    56    50    50
38    39    48    58    70    66    55    52    42    42
27    28    42    53    62    61    50    42    33    33
16    24    39    47    56    53    44    38    27    27
16    22    36    45    48    45    39    31    25    25
14    21    34    38    38    36    31    28    24    24
11    16    30    31    38    36    30    30    30    30
10    13    27    34    36    33    30    30    30    30
   8    11    22    28    27    25    25    24    24    24
   5      7    17    21    21    21    21    21    21    21

 

So any ideas about if this is right or not ?
 

 

Screenshot_20211001-083721_Excel.jpg

depends, you can do it 2 ways apparently.

1. build an adapter into the loom and run it as is.

or 

2. run direct wiring to actuator no resistors etc required but the map needs to be inverted.

 

this is how it was explained to me by a company who has done many of these conversions.

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On 10/2/2021 at 2:14 PM, bronx1987 said:

depends, you can do it 2 ways apparently.

1. build an adapter into the loom and run it as is.

or 

2. run direct wiring to actuator no resistors etc required but the map needs to be inverted.

 

this is how it was explained to me by a company who has done many of these conversions.

IMG-20201017-WA0000.thumb.jpg.18ce6e9a65eab278249d01851a68b5eb.jpgimage.png.e077785b5b0dbe98e0ce0380cbbf236b.png.fc4ffe892f09052fe11d08f419236d43.png

 So i made this and it does work in a limited duration with the n75 map as above from 27 to 85 so this needs to be extended to 5 to 95 as i have read and i tried this above.

Also i am trying to have all the ecu work done by Enda but i am unable to reach him if anyone might be of help and reach him i would appreciate very much.

Edited by Sagnak

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So can you comment on the duty cycle as it seems quite abnormal compared to e60 525d on the lowest mg stroke highest rpm side 

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Hi @Sagnak I have this working in mine now. I will try to write a proper update tomorrow.

There are a few more tables than just the duty cycle that needed changing. @TheEnd has been helping me with this over the summer, he has all the information you will need.

Enda's contact details are here:
https://www.endtuning.com/contact/ try calling.

 

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1 hour ago, sinner said:

Hi @Sagnak I have this working in mine now. I will try to write a proper update tomorrow.

There are a few more tables than just the duty cycle that needed changing. @TheEnd has been helping me with this over the summer, he has all the information you will need.

Enda's contact details are here:
https://www.endtuning.com/contact/ try calling.

 

The e60 525d vnt map looks more logical than the e39 525d map and but as we all know Enda has all the information, I have phoned and we talked like few months back but now I am unable to reach him, whatsapp messages seem to be delivered but no replies so if you can reach him please mention about me that i also need him to make me new ecu maps and adjustments and my phone number is the one with +90532

And i am looking forward for your update 

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On 10/21/2020 at 2:50 AM, bronx1987 said:

Just to help you guys with nozzle options a bit more:

Factory 530d nozzles are 5x0.175mm

535d nozzles are 6x0.16mm (flow up to 450hp with the r90 cp3)

145p763 nozzles 5x0.185mm

145p 1091 5x0.20mm  ~ (huge flow)

144p 1050 6x0.18mm  ~ (huge flow)

FIRAD 142p 795 5x0.18mm

 

These are all DSLA and DLLA Common rail injector nozzles, so they should all be interchangeable.

If I get time I might buy a 535d injector and have a look to see what flow rates change to with the different nozzles.

Also, I have found out e39 525d (ending in 048) and 530d (ending in 047 or 266) injectors are identical except for the injector tips, so you can always pick up a 525d injector set if its cheaper and just swap nozzles on them.

 

Hi! A bit of offtopic , but just for some clarification  - are you sure data for 535D - 1415 nozzles (6 x 0.16mm ) is right? Because according to this catalogue (00000875.pdf (sevendiesel.it)),  1063+ nozzles (the ones from E46 330D M57N ...131 injector) is 6 holes x 0.16mm dia , and by these injectors one cannot make more than ~300hp. So the 535D injectors should have bigger holes or more hole count. I have not found any more reliable source for 535D nozzles data, and there is only guesses circulating around internet on 535D nozzles data. Here (https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=2ahUKEwinr4un2sbzAhUjiYsKHSTZC-MQFnoECAsQAQ&url=https%3A%2F%2Fshop.turbobot.sk%2Fbmw-m57%2Ftryska-vstreku-535d-pre-bmw-m57n-a-m47n&usg=AOvVaw3mCi-IQc86XGVhunmNu2hp) someone says 535D (1415) nozzles hasa 6 holes x 0.18mm , but then again - too little differences to have such a big influence on max flow (300hp vs 450hp). 

 

Secondly, not all DSLA DLLA  common rail nozzles share the same overall body dimensions, there are ones which has same body as BMW nozzles, but with a small extension  to the needle, then there is ones where like missing machined step in the lower body of the nozzle, etc. Just to say - careful when choosing nozzles just by part numbers, you also need to see physical differences.

For E39 M57 there might be a popular upgrade - DLLA144P 1417 (Man TGA truck) with 7 x 0.245mm holes.

 

Thirdly - if particular type of injectors are replaced by nozzles which were never delivered in that package (let's say M57 injectors with MAN TGA truck nozzles, where TGA injectors have completely different valve, springs etc., , then I think it's impossible to generate IMA codes. Even there is different count of IMA values between E39 and E60 injectors. AFAIK IMA codes have zero impact on drivability but still - how do you fight with the absence of IMA recoding?

 

 

BTW, can E39 physically injectors accept 535D nozzles (let's forget about different holes angles)?

I am now in the process of replacing nozzles for my E46 330D  xxx 131 injectors (stock DLLA 160P 1063+ nozzles) but I do not know if they can accept 535D nozzles (it should theoretically). There was someone on www.ecuconnections.com saying that only new EURO4 M57N injectors (xxxx 216) can accept 535D nozzles, and they will not fit EURO3 M57N injectors (131 I have) - which I hardly belive because nozzles body should be the same....

 

Please confirm if you have anything to add!

 

Thanks!

 

Edited by kristsm
additional data

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3 hours ago, kristsm said:

 

Hi! A bit of offtopic , but just for some clarification  - are you sure data for 535D - 1415 nozzles (6 x 0.16mm ) is right? Because according to this catalogue (00000875.pdf (sevendiesel.it)),  1063+ nozzles (the ones from E46 330D M57N ...131 injector) is 6 holes x 0.16mm dia , and by these injectors one cannot make more than ~300hp. So the 535D injectors should have bigger holes or more hole count. I have not found any more reliable source for 535D nozzles data, and there is only guesses circulating around internet on 535D nozzles data. Here (https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=2ahUKEwinr4un2sbzAhUjiYsKHSTZC-MQFnoECAsQAQ&url=https%3A%2F%2Fshop.turbobot.sk%2Fbmw-m57%2Ftryska-vstreku-535d-pre-bmw-m57n-a-m47n&usg=AOvVaw3mCi-IQc86XGVhunmNu2hp) someone says 535D (1415) nozzles hasa 6 holes x 0.18mm , but then again - too little differences to have such a big influence on max flow (300hp vs 450hp). 

 

Secondly, not all DSLA DLLA  common rail nozzles share the same overall body dimensions, there are ones which has same body as BMW nozzles, but with a small extension  to the needle, then there is ones where like missing machined step in the lower body of the nozzle, etc. Just to say - careful when choosing nozzles just by part numbers, you also need to see physical differences.

For E39 M57 there might be a popular upgrade - DLLA144P 1417 (Man TGA truck) with 7 x 0.245mm holes.

 

Thirdly - if particular type of injectors are replaced by nozzles which were never delivered in that package (let's say M57 injectors with MAN TGA truck nozzles, where TGA injectors have completely different valve, springs etc., , then I think it's impossible to generate IMA codes. Even there is different count of IMA values between E39 and E60 injectors. AFAIK IMA codes have zero impact on drivability but still - how do you fight with the absence of IMA recoding?

 

 

BTW, can E39 physically injectors accept 535D nozzles (let's forget about different holes angles)?

I am now in the process of replacing nozzles for my E46 330D  xxx 131 injectors (stock DLLA 160P 1063+ nozzles) but I do not know if they can accept 535D nozzles (it should theoretically). There was someone on www.ecuconnections.com saying that only new EURO4 M57N injectors (xxxx 216) can accept 535D nozzles, and they will not fit EURO3 M57N injectors (131 I have) - which I hardly belive because nozzles body should be the same....

 

Please confirm if you have anything to add!

 

Thanks!

 

Hi, this is just going by what I could find from the sevendiesel catalogue and from these guys: http://dieselcatalog.online/en/bosch/list_for_index/common_rail_injector_bosch.html

I cross referenced parts and numbers from ebay where people were offering rebuilt 535d injectors etc

I have just bought some 535d tips from darkside and I did fit them to my original e39 530d injectors.

How much will they flow? who knows, I will just put them in and keep tuning till I run out of turbo or out of injector.

As far as I am aware 535d injectors as a whole dont work as they are a piezo style injector, hence why people do the nozzle swap.

I have not taken apart a m57n injector to compare sizes to the factory m57 injector, so I am not sure if they flow more as a whole or just because of the tip.

Outlet holes on m57 and m57n  where injector body meets tip are the same.

The actual inlet where high pressure lines bolt on are at a different angle between m57n and m57, like 10deg angle difference.

If I can get my hands on a spare m57n injector, I will gladly disassemble, but its difficult to get my hands on in a country that has little to no diesel BMW's.

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53 minutes ago, bronx1987 said:

Hi, this is just going by what I could find from the sevendiesel catalogue and from these guys: http://dieselcatalog.online/en/bosch/list_for_index/common_rail_injector_bosch.html

I cross referenced parts and numbers from ebay where people were offering rebuilt 535d injectors etc

I have just bought some 535d tips from darkside and I did fit them to my original e39 530d injectors.

How much will they flow? who knows, I will just put them in and keep tuning till I run out of turbo or out of injector.

As far as I am aware 535d injectors as a whole dont work as they are a piezo style injector, hence why people do the nozzle swap.

I have not taken apart a m57n injector to compare sizes to the factory m57 injector, so I am not sure if they flow more as a whole or just because of the tip.

Outlet holes on m57 and m57n  where injector body meets tip are the same.

The actual inlet where high pressure lines bolt on are at a different angle between m57n and m57, like 10deg angle difference.

If I can get my hands on a spare m57n injector, I will gladly disassemble, but its difficult to get my hands on in a country that has little to no diesel BMW's.

 

pre-lci E60 535D (270hp model) has same solenoid injectors as previous era cars (that's where 1415 nozzles come from) , only LCI E60 286hp, E90 and so on M57N-engined cars has piezzo injectors.

I don't think darkside has made any kind of special nozzle  (usually it's about 300 pieces+ for any manufacturer to start doing something custom.... China manufacturer, not BOSCH of course ;) ) , There are no 160 degree nozzles that I am aware to fit DLLA160P bmw injectors (besides 1415), but there are plenty of truck nozzles in 144-145 degrees region (that is what darkside is reselling for M57 first gen)

 

BTW, why did not you use nozzles with correct needle degrees? There are plenty of them :)

 

Edited by kristsm

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19 hours ago, kristsm said:

 

pre-lci E60 535D (270hp model) has same solenoid injectors as previous era cars (that's where 1415 nozzles come from) , only LCI E60 286hp, E90 and so on M57N-engined cars has piezzo injectors.

I don't think darkside has made any kind of special nozzle  (usually it's about 300 pieces+ for any manufacturer to start doing something custom.... China manufacturer, not BOSCH of course ;) ) , There are no 160 degree nozzles that I am aware to fit DLLA160P bmw injectors (besides 1415), but there are plenty of truck nozzles in 144-145 degrees region (that is what darkside is reselling for M57 first gen)

 

BTW, why did not you use nozzles with correct needle degrees? There are plenty of them :)

 

I did use the firad nozzles, but they did not work, the flow was between 70mm3 and 90mm3, thats too large of a difference.

So I returned them for warranty and bought some 535d tips instead.

We shall see how they work out, I am not going to spend another few hundred dollars just to get them flow tested.

Both 535d tips and my stock injectors are new.

I was thinking of using different 140-150deg tips instead, however buying them brand new, not made in china seemed impossible.

So since heaps of people run 160deg injectors in m57 motors without issues, I'll do the same, just ramp up my pressures for better atomization (1800-2000bar).

 

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