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DepthHoar

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  1. Like
    DepthHoar got a reaction from d_a_n1979 in wind noise ?   
    Could be many different things, but has it had a new windscreen recently? I ask because if it has, windscreen fitters need to follow a fairly precise procedure, carefully documented in the BMW TIS, when fitting a new screen in order to avoid creating the wind noise issue on an E39.
     
    When I had a new windscreen fitted to my M5 I provided the fitter with the printed TIS document. I thought he might be a knob about it "telling me how to do my job" etc etc but he was quite grateful, did a great job fitting the screen and asked if he could keep the document, so proper professional (always learning etc.).
     
    Edit. (BMW E39 windscreen replacement TIS for those interested):-
     
    R&R Windscreen.pdf
  2. Like
    DepthHoar got a reaction from d_a_n1979 in wind noise ?   
    Could be many different things, but has it had a new windscreen recently? I ask because if it has, windscreen fitters need to follow a fairly precise procedure, carefully documented in the BMW TIS, when fitting a new screen in order to avoid creating the wind noise issue on an E39.
     
    When I had a new windscreen fitted to my M5 I provided the fitter with the printed TIS document. I thought he might be a knob about it "telling me how to do my job" etc etc but he was quite grateful, did a great job fitting the screen and asked if he could keep the document, so proper professional (always learning etc.).
     
    Edit. (BMW E39 windscreen replacement TIS for those interested):-
     
    R&R Windscreen.pdf
  3. Like
    DepthHoar got a reaction from andy-e60 in Will this stop the brake judder?   
    The front (upper & lower) control arms on my 530d need changing at circa 60k miles. I'm on 138k miles now and about to fit the 3rd set, which will be Lemforder.

    I'm pretty sure this judder/shimmy issue works as follows.

    The bush on the 'bent' front control arm is sometimes referred to as the 'brake reaction bush' and when the bush is new it absorbs a lot of the energy/vibration generated under braking but without transmitting it into the body as judder. Thing is, if the brake discs/pads/wheel bearings are worn or distorted enough to produce excessive run-out, a worn or degraded brake reaction bush will be incapable of absorbing the energy/judder so it gets transmitted to the body instead. Changing the discs/pads/hubs will make the run-out/vibration disappear in the short term, only for it to return as the newly fitted parts start to wear and exhibit some run-out.

    Typical owner experience might go something like this:-

    (The E39 is, say, at 110k miles with new front control arms fitted at 65k miles, new brake discs & pads @ 90k miles).

    1. Owner experiences judder when braking at motorway speeds, especially when the brakes are hot and the car fully loaded.
    Excessive run-out from worn brakes overloads the capacity of the worn brake reaction bushes to absorb vibration = judder.

    2. Owner changes brake discs/pads and judder disappears or is reduced. Brake reaction bushes 'look fine on the car' when inspected by the owner & several mechanics.
    New brake discs exhibit less or nil run-out. Car runs and brakes smoothly without judder since the old/worn brake reaction bushes are unstressed.

    3. Judder returns a few hundred or 1000 miles later especially when brakes are hot etc..
    Brake discs starting to show run-out with just a little wear & heat, enough to overload the capacity of the old brake reaction bushes to damp the judder.

    4. Owner is convinced the new discs are warped & several mechanics agree 'the new discs must be warped' so owner fits another set of new ones.
    Judder returns again just a few hundred miles later & judder is slightly worse since the brake reaction bushes continue to age/wear and now have even lower tolerance to run-out produced by the discs.

    5. Owner finally replaces brake reaction bushes. Judder finally disappears.
    Car now has newish pads/discs = little run-out, which the new brake reaction bushes absorb with ease.

    Or,

    5. Owner finally replaces brake reaction bushes, but not the complete arm. Judder is a little better but still present.
    Newish pads/discs = little run-out which the new bushes cope with, but the ball joint on the other end of the arm is worn and is transmitting some energy as judder.

    6. Owner fits new arm (which comes fitted with new bush and ball joint). Judder disappears completely and 'permanently'.

    A few other things to add to the mix to make the diagnosis of shimmy/judder more difficult:

    * The are 10 ball joints in total on the front suspension & steering which can all wear. The E39 has a sophisticated multi-link suspension with relatively low wear tolerances before NVH becomes an issue.
    * There's another arm (the straight one) with a bush that can wear, though this tends to give less trouble than the brake reaction bush.
    * Wheel bearings/hubs can also wear and produce similar symptoms.
    * Issues of 'pad transfer' can affect the brake disc/pad interface and produce judder ("It's your discs, mate. They're warped", is the usual diagnosis on otherwise healthy pads/discs that just need properly bedding in, or re-bedding in. Discs will eventually warp when they are beyond their wear limits, cannot dissipate heat effectively and run-out becomes excessive). Occasionally, you will be supplied with a crap pair of new brake discs - probably from the cheaper end of the aftermarket.
    * Seized, or partially seized, brake calipers.
    * Worn struts and strut mounts, though this is probably a rarer cause of judder.
    * Poorly balanced wheels and/or buckled rims.
    * Refurbed alloy wheels with new paint or powder coating on the hub/wheel interface.
    * Wheels mounted to poorly cleaned up hubs.
    * Fitting cheap & rubbish aftermarket control arms, "Can't be the control arms creating the judder 'cos I put new YingTingLing ones on the car only 7k miles ago".
     
    A combination of all of the above on a 14 yr old vehicle makes for a major head-scratch when diagnosing judder/shimmy!
  4. Like
    DepthHoar got a reaction from Jameswsb in E39 M5 with 300k+ miles on its engine and 400k+ on its chassis   
    Haha! He certainly likes the sound of his own voice. Seems to use five sentences when one would do. Hasn't yet realised that the cars are more interesting than he is.
     
    He's a Mercedes Master tech, so knows his shit, but definitely has a bad case of verbal diarrhoea....
  5. Like
    DepthHoar got a reaction from Jameswsb in E39 M5 with 300k+ miles on its engine and 400k+ on its chassis   
    Will  be following this project with interest!
  6. Like
    DepthHoar got a reaction from Jameswsb in E39 M5   
    Be rude not to......
     
     

  7. Like
    DepthHoar got a reaction from Jameswsb in E39 M5 Suspension - Experiences Please   
    Another complete front & rear OE refresh here. 
     
    I don't track the car so can't comment on that side of things but with the new OE dampers I found the ride to be beautifully compliant for regular & fast road use. 
     
    (The old front OE dampers had become a little crashy after about 80k miles and the new ones made a noticeable improvement.)
     
    If you're going to be tracking the car  you may want to look at one of the better quality aftermarket set ups since you're likely to experience better body control when really pushing the car on track. The down side will be a somewhat less compliant ride on regular roads at other times of course.
     
    I'd recommend replacing top mounts when swapping out the dampers + a proper 4 wheel alignment after all the work has been carried out.
  8. Like
    DepthHoar got a reaction from d_a_n1979 in New Car added - V8 540i   
    The TRW one at £170 is OE, as fitted at the factory.
     
    Here's the factory original one (fitted when the car was first built) that came off my M5 - same as fitted to all E39 V8s :-
     

     
    Just make sure the new one supplied to you is for a RHD vehicle.
  9. Like
    DepthHoar got a reaction from PliSsK in 540i M62 / B10 V8 facelift coolant change   
    50% concentrate, 50% water.
  10. Like
    DepthHoar got a reaction from PliSsK in 540i M62 / B10 V8 facelift coolant change   
    I took no chances and jury-rigged a sort of funnel to catch most of the coolant as it came out of each side. Was a bit awkward but worked with only a little spillage.
  11. Thanks
    DepthHoar got a reaction from PliSsK in 540i M62 / B10 V8 facelift coolant change   
    Can only speak from experience on my S62 engine (E39 M5) which has I think the same basic architecture as the M62.
     
    Draining the engine from the rad and the two engine block drain ports is the best way to remove all the old coolant. Draining from the rad only doesn't get anywhere near as much coolant out of the system.
     
    The two engine block ports have somewhat awkward access and I found it best to have good access from underneath, not least to catch the huge amount of gushing coolant. IIRC the two engine block drain ports will require new metal washers. Good idea to flush the block with fresh water..... but only if you're prepared to put up with a lot of mess!
     
    I disconnected the lower hose to drain the rad. If yours is like the S62 set up then you pull/slide a large metal clip partially out which then allows you to tug/pull and get the hose off the rad. (A thin screwdriver is best for levering the metal clip up). Whole job is best done with good access to the underneath of the car. Take care. The end of the hose has a plastic fitting as does the rad and both may well be brittle from age. There's a large 'O' ring inside the hose assembly that would be worth lubing lightly before reassembly.
     
    From the Realoem diagram it looks like you have a water cooled alternator as that 'O' ring you reference is part of the voltage regulator?
     
    I like to pre-mix the coolant before I put it in the cooling system since I can ensure the 50% solution, but putting the concentrate in first would also be fine I'm sure. G48  from Comma is the correct stuff and is well priced.
     
    Here's a useful link: https://www.bimmerforums.com/forum/showthread.php?1443780-where-s-the-coolant-drain-plug-that-on-the-engine-block-in-the-540
  12. Haha
    DepthHoar got a reaction from Carl-e34 in San Antonio, Texas, Craigslist advert for an E39 540   
    (Shy, delicate types, this isn't for you! Look away now.)
     
    Saw this referenced on M5board. Made me laugh out loud.
     
    Sniffpetrol, eat your heart out!
     
    Enjoy (but definitely not politically correct or safe for work).
     

     

     
  13. Like
    DepthHoar got a reaction from benedwards64 in E39 M5 clutch & flywheel - too good to be true?   
    I bought my clutch kit from CP4L (part of ECP) for a decent price 4 yrs ago without incident though I know others have experienced occasional issues with them.
     
    The CP4L price in your link does look good. 
     
    The LUK flywheel part number quoted on the eBay link indicates the correct part. Here's the LUK catalogue reference for the DMF:-
    https://webcat.schaeffler.com/web/schaeffler/en_GB/PKW/16/1449/10300/6/415 0110 10_577/applicationSearch.xhtml?result=1539981722783&csc=1
     
    Sachs clutch kit part number also looks good. Put your vehicle data into the Sachs web catalogue for confirmation:-
    https://webcat.zf.com/?SPR=4
     
    I also remember someone getting a stonking deal on a DMF via Amazon a year or two ago but definitely not available now.
  14. Haha
    DepthHoar got a reaction from Carl-e34 in San Antonio, Texas, Craigslist advert for an E39 540   
    (Shy, delicate types, this isn't for you! Look away now.)
     
    Saw this referenced on M5board. Made me laugh out loud.
     
    Sniffpetrol, eat your heart out!
     
    Enjoy (but definitely not politically correct or safe for work).
     

     

     
  15. Haha
    DepthHoar got a reaction from Carl-e34 in San Antonio, Texas, Craigslist advert for an E39 540   
    (Shy, delicate types, this isn't for you! Look away now.)
     
    Saw this referenced on M5board. Made me laugh out loud.
     
    Sniffpetrol, eat your heart out!
     
    Enjoy (but definitely not politically correct or safe for work).
     

     

     
  16. Haha
    DepthHoar got a reaction from Carl-e34 in San Antonio, Texas, Craigslist advert for an E39 540   
    (Shy, delicate types, this isn't for you! Look away now.)
     
    Saw this referenced on M5board. Made me laugh out loud.
     
    Sniffpetrol, eat your heart out!
     
    Enjoy (but definitely not politically correct or safe for work).
     

     

     
  17. Like
    DepthHoar got a reaction from benedwards64 in Cool Runnings: E39 M5 thermostat 'O' rings learning curve   
    'Cool Runnings' was a crap movie. But it's a snappy thread title to describe the operation of my slow-to-warm-up E39 M5.
     
    The problem is the well known progressive failure of the thermostat that results in it opening sooner and remaining open wider than it should. Thermostat replacement has been well documented. There's several long DIY threads on M5Board and many, many tales of woe from a lot of people describing their botched attempts, mangled 'O' rings and coolant leaks. Reading the threads, luck seemed to play a part in whether the outcome was successful since everyone seemed to follow more or less the same processes and procedures, yet many still failed. What's going on? This couldn't have happened in the BMW factory in Germany back in the day; had to be right first time, every time. So there has to be a way of installing the thermostat without chewing up innumerable 'O' rings. Surely?
     
    Was feeling confident that I would find a way. Actually, really confident since I would be removing the air intake plenum so would have excellent access to remove the thing and re-install it. Simples then! What could possibly go wrong? Started well.....
     

    (Above) Here it is. Hours of fun ahead. Early disassembly is fast. Air intake tubes from the MAFs to the plenum removed + the plenum cover. After that drain coolant out of the expansion bottle and the top of the bottom hose. A siphon makes this much easier. Definitely no need to drain all the coolant. I think I got out about 4 litres (of a total of 10 litres) which was enough to carry out the 'stat removal/replacement. (Tightening torque values for the plenum nuts, in two stages, 5NM, starting with the centre four nuts followed by the nuts around the perimeter at 5NM. Then 10NM, again starting with the centre four before moving onto the outer nuts.)
     

    (Above) Plenum cover off reveals the air intake 'trumpets'. Loads of screws/bolts to remove. Trumpets come off first. (No torques values given for the trumpet securing nuts in TIS. I'd recommend 'hand tight' on a spanner or ratchet. Remember the trumpets are just plastic so don't go mad. The nuts are 'nyloc' with a flange and BMW TIS recommends using new ones when reassembling). I also replaced the 4 plenum 'O' rings and the big plenum rubber gasket (visible above) to ensure against un-metered air entering the intake.
     
     

    (Above) Trumpets off. Stuff some kitchen towel down the intakes to keep dirt and debris out. Loads of plenum bolts to remove now. (Torque values: two stage tightening again - 5NM starting with the inner rows then moving to the outer. Repeat using 10NM.) Detach all oil separator rubber hoses from the front and underneath the plenum.
     

    (Above) Got my crayons out for this one. The plan was to replace a load of stuff under the plenum that typically give trouble down the road. Preventative, or planned, maintenance. Usual suspects highlighted above. Basically anything rubber that carries vacuum or tank vapours was changed.  The Throttle Position Sensors (TPS) were also changed and they were a bit of a mare to extract, as was the Fuel Tank Breather Valve.
     
    Back to the thermostat. You can just see two of the (three) shiny alloy tubes that connect the thermostat to the top part of the engine - bottom of above photo.
     
     

    (Above) Thermostat removed. With the plenum out of the way access is great for removal. Remove the VANOS oil junction box that is bolted on to the thermostat (two bolts). 3 bolts hold down the thermostat housing to the top of the coolant pump. (Tightening torques for these 3 bolts: 10NM). Be patient removing the 'stat. It'll resist if it's the original and been in there for the best part of 20 yrs. Try to rock it up and down a bit then side to side and pulling. Final removal requires you to pull out and up. A sort of rotation, not a straight horizontal pull.  Swearing is optional. I did. A lot. If you haven't replaced those small diameter oil separator pipes (arrowed above) then now is the best time to do that job since they're an arse to do with the thermostat and plenum in situ.
     
     

    (Above) Thermostat housing (inverted here) and alloy connecting tubes removed. Pull all the alloy tubes out of their recesses - wrap in cloth or tape if using a tool to extract them. They're made to tight tolerances so be careful extracting them. You'll want to replace all the 'O' rings. Buy a spare set since they're cheap but you shouldn't need the extra ones if you do this right. Factory original thermostat in view above. When I eventually put my new stat back in the housing I orientated it in the same position. This orientation seems to give optimal coolant flow across the brass capsule containing the wax.
     
     

    (Above) Gently clean up the recesses for the tubes in the housing and engine side. The tubes are a very snug fit even without 'O' rings so you need to be careful to remove only oxidation, not metal. Lube them up. I used Liqui Moly automotive silicone grease. Some use Vaseline. I've read KY jelly works, too.
     
    Well, I screwed up my first attempt and I didn't just nip the edge of the 'O' rings either.....
     
     

    (Above) 'Fools rush in....'?
     
    This is what I did wrong:
     
    1. Put the alloy tubes (with 'O' rings either end) into the thermostat housing first.
    2. Then tried to achieve the impossible by rotating the thermostat housing (with projecting alloy tubes) down and up to meet the other 3 engine-side recesses, and at the same time tried to get the projecting thermostat to clear the lip of it's own circular aperture at the top of the water pump. Reminds me of trying to assemble something like this:-

     
    There's very little, if any, dimensional tolerance to allow a clean engagement of the 3 tubes into the engine and seat the thermostat down into it's aperture all at the same time.
     
    3. I persisted with this approach. (Taking inspiration from Homer Simpson perhaps?) Eventually, after much wrangling, the 'O' rings 'popped' into place (Health Warning: 'popping' is not a good noise when locating these 'O' rings! Read on.) and the thermostat seated down onto the pump.
     
    Buttoned everything up, refilled with coolant, fired up the engine and very quickly had coolant dribbling out from the 'O'rings. Doh!
     
    I had extra 'O'rings but I wasn't going to attempt another go at putting the thermostat in by taking the plenum off again. Resigned myself to doing it with everything in place.
     
    A better, more logical and successful approach:
     
    1. Put 'O' rings onto all 3 alloy tubes. Carefully push the lubed up alloy tubes into the engine-side recesses, not the thermostat housing. Get the tubes absolutely square on to the recesses and press them gently but firmly home. If you don't do this absolutely squarely, with even pressure, you'll nip and edge of an 'O' ring. Practice first it without an 'O' ring. Once you get the hang of this the alloy tubes will slide home with their snug fitting 'O' rings. They don't 'pop' into place. Popping probably means you've nipped an 'O' ring. 
     
    2. Make sure the alloy tubes are pushed home right to the end of their recesses. Now that they're squarely and fully seated you can push each one so it's pointing up slightly just a few degrees. It's not much but it does help. Don't worry, the 'O' rings will still be fully seated. Make sure the alloy tubes are perfectly spaced and aligned ready to eventually engage with the stat housing.
     
    3. Don't put the thermostat into the thermostat housing instead drop it into the coolant pump aperture like this:
     

    (Above) 'Stat sat on top of the coolant pump aperture. Make sure the projecting brass wax capsule of the 'stat is down into, and hard up against edge of, the circular aperture (of the coolant pump) nearest to you. Arrow shows one (others obscured) of the 3 alloy tubes ready in place in their engine-side recesses. 
     
    4. Make sure the VANOS oil line is zip tied to one side. Ditto the large coolant hoses: you need some room to manoeuvre. You only need to undo 2 banjo bolts to swing the VANOS oil line stuff out of the way but new copper washers will be needed for reassembly - 4 washers in total, 2 different sizes. Realoem has all the part numbers.
     
    5. With the 'stat sitting in the coolant pump aperture (as per photo), very carefully move the thermostat housing down onto the 'stat. At the same time lightly engage the 3 recesses of the stat housing with the 3 engine side alloy tubes. Keep everything square and aligned.
     
    6. With your fingers underneath the stat housing,  lift the stat up into the thermostat housing. Seat it fully up into the housing with your fingers - should be an almost flush fit. As you're doing this, continue to lower the 'stat housing down. Maintain firm control, and remaining square,  push the stat housing horizontally onto the 3 engine-side alloy pipes. If everything was lined up everything will slide into place and be a nice snug fit, plus the 3 bolt holes on the pump housing (shown in the photo above) will align perfectly with ones in the 'stat housing.
     
    Once I'd learnt from my initial error the above method was a cinch. They must have done it this way in the factory. 
    Buttoned everything up, filled the system, fired up the engine with cabin temp and blower fan to max. Air auto bleeds out of the cooling system. Ran the engine for 20 minutes, hot enough for the pusher fan etc to kick in. No leaks or coolant loss!
     
    Other thermostat  related stuff:
     

    (Above) Replaced the inner seal inside the stat housing. Bought a cheap bearing puller.
     
     

    (Above) Needs to be pulled out in two stages, rotating through 90 degrees for the second 'pull'. 
     
    The new seal needs pressing in. Carefully.
     

    (Above) Cheap seal press kit worked well.

    (Above) Might be cheaper to just buy the thermostat housing new from BMW since it comes equipped with a pressed in seal!  (The new tools will get used for other stuff no doubt.)

     
     
    Did a little side by side test on the old and new stats:
     

     
     

    (Above) New stat vs old 'stat at 85 degrees C.  
     
    With the new stat the car now warms up faster and runs warmer. Temperature gauge sits at '11.45' instead of just '10.00' (IYSWIM)
     
    Quick photo tour of the other under plenum work carried out: Throttle Position Sensors (TPS)
     

    (Above) Back of the engine hard up against the wiring conduit next to the firewall. The two screw heads hold the sensor in position - Pozidrive screw heads, not hex head unfortunately.
     

     

     
     

    (Above) Did use hex head bolts when fitting the new TPS. So much easier to fit (or remove for that matter!)
     

    (Above) Bit of butchery required to ease extraction of the old TPS on the nearside bank of the engine.
     
    (Below) Vacuum hose for the fuel pressure regulator nearing the end of its useful life. It sits in the 'V' between the two banks of cylinders and gets comprehensively cooked over the years:-

     

    (Above) It's a common source of vacuum leaks on our engines.
     
    Round up photo of replaced parts:-
     

    (Above) The largest hose (bottom hose for the radiator) in the photo is actually the new one since I'm letting my garage guys change this as it's best replaced with good access to the underneath of the car.
     
    Had been putting off replacing all the above as it's often bloody awkward work best suited to people with childlike hands but with 10" long fingers. Mine aren't like that. At all. The thermostat - once I'd worked out the best method - was not that difficult and I reckon could be done quite easily in 2 hours with the plenum remaining on. Getting the stat housing off the car was probably the hardest bit.
     
     
     
     
  18. Like
    DepthHoar got a reaction from Jameswsb in auxiliary (serpentine) tension belt - advice please   
    Had the old ones lying around so some part numbers and dimensions for replacement pulleys referred to in the above postings:
     
    *All the pulleys in the photos are the old factory-fitted originals. The boxes they appear with in the photos contained the new INA replacements*
     
    A/C pulley first:- (INA markings just visible on the original factory-fitted pulley.)
     

     

    (Above) The INA new replacement is 24.5mm wide but as you can see from the wear marks in photo above the 1.5mm deficit isn't an issue as the belt has plenty of 'elbow room'.
     

     
     
     
    Water pump/alternator pulleys:-

     

     

    (Above) Both of the water pump/alternator pulleys.
     
    Bore size for all pulleys is 17mm.
     
    Hope this helps someone tracking down replacement pulleys. Much cheaper than the BMW complete assemblies!
     
     
     
  19. Like
    DepthHoar got a reaction from Jameswsb in auxiliary (serpentine) tension belt - advice please   
    Had the old ones lying around so some part numbers and dimensions for replacement pulleys referred to in the above postings:
     
    *All the pulleys in the photos are the old factory-fitted originals. The boxes they appear with in the photos contained the new INA replacements*
     
    A/C pulley first:- (INA markings just visible on the original factory-fitted pulley.)
     

     

    (Above) The INA new replacement is 24.5mm wide but as you can see from the wear marks in photo above the 1.5mm deficit isn't an issue as the belt has plenty of 'elbow room'.
     

     
     
     
    Water pump/alternator pulleys:-

     

     

    (Above) Both of the water pump/alternator pulleys.
     
    Bore size for all pulleys is 17mm.
     
    Hope this helps someone tracking down replacement pulleys. Much cheaper than the BMW complete assemblies!
     
     
     
  20. Like
    DepthHoar got a reaction from Jameswsb in E39 M5 Suspension - Experiences Please   
    Another complete front & rear OE refresh here. 
     
    I don't track the car so can't comment on that side of things but with the new OE dampers I found the ride to be beautifully compliant for regular & fast road use. 
     
    (The old front OE dampers had become a little crashy after about 80k miles and the new ones made a noticeable improvement.)
     
    If you're going to be tracking the car  you may want to look at one of the better quality aftermarket set ups since you're likely to experience better body control when really pushing the car on track. The down side will be a somewhat less compliant ride on regular roads at other times of course.
     
    I'd recommend replacing top mounts when swapping out the dampers + a proper 4 wheel alignment after all the work has been carried out.
  21. Thanks
    DepthHoar got a reaction from stu08 in Centre Air Vent Photos   
    (Below) E39 530d (MY2000)

     
     
    (Below) E39 M5 (MY2001)

     
  22. Like
    DepthHoar got a reaction from benedwards64 in Cool Runnings: E39 M5 thermostat 'O' rings learning curve   
    'Cool Runnings' was a crap movie. But it's a snappy thread title to describe the operation of my slow-to-warm-up E39 M5.
     
    The problem is the well known progressive failure of the thermostat that results in it opening sooner and remaining open wider than it should. Thermostat replacement has been well documented. There's several long DIY threads on M5Board and many, many tales of woe from a lot of people describing their botched attempts, mangled 'O' rings and coolant leaks. Reading the threads, luck seemed to play a part in whether the outcome was successful since everyone seemed to follow more or less the same processes and procedures, yet many still failed. What's going on? This couldn't have happened in the BMW factory in Germany back in the day; had to be right first time, every time. So there has to be a way of installing the thermostat without chewing up innumerable 'O' rings. Surely?
     
    Was feeling confident that I would find a way. Actually, really confident since I would be removing the air intake plenum so would have excellent access to remove the thing and re-install it. Simples then! What could possibly go wrong? Started well.....
     

    (Above) Here it is. Hours of fun ahead. Early disassembly is fast. Air intake tubes from the MAFs to the plenum removed + the plenum cover. After that drain coolant out of the expansion bottle and the top of the bottom hose. A siphon makes this much easier. Definitely no need to drain all the coolant. I think I got out about 4 litres (of a total of 10 litres) which was enough to carry out the 'stat removal/replacement. (Tightening torque values for the plenum nuts, in two stages, 5NM, starting with the centre four nuts followed by the nuts around the perimeter at 5NM. Then 10NM, again starting with the centre four before moving onto the outer nuts.)
     

    (Above) Plenum cover off reveals the air intake 'trumpets'. Loads of screws/bolts to remove. Trumpets come off first. (No torques values given for the trumpet securing nuts in TIS. I'd recommend 'hand tight' on a spanner or ratchet. Remember the trumpets are just plastic so don't go mad. The nuts are 'nyloc' with a flange and BMW TIS recommends using new ones when reassembling). I also replaced the 4 plenum 'O' rings and the big plenum rubber gasket (visible above) to ensure against un-metered air entering the intake.
     
     

    (Above) Trumpets off. Stuff some kitchen towel down the intakes to keep dirt and debris out. Loads of plenum bolts to remove now. (Torque values: two stage tightening again - 5NM starting with the inner rows then moving to the outer. Repeat using 10NM.) Detach all oil separator rubber hoses from the front and underneath the plenum.
     

    (Above) Got my crayons out for this one. The plan was to replace a load of stuff under the plenum that typically give trouble down the road. Preventative, or planned, maintenance. Usual suspects highlighted above. Basically anything rubber that carries vacuum or tank vapours was changed.  The Throttle Position Sensors (TPS) were also changed and they were a bit of a mare to extract, as was the Fuel Tank Breather Valve.
     
    Back to the thermostat. You can just see two of the (three) shiny alloy tubes that connect the thermostat to the top part of the engine - bottom of above photo.
     
     

    (Above) Thermostat removed. With the plenum out of the way access is great for removal. Remove the VANOS oil junction box that is bolted on to the thermostat (two bolts). 3 bolts hold down the thermostat housing to the top of the coolant pump. (Tightening torques for these 3 bolts: 10NM). Be patient removing the 'stat. It'll resist if it's the original and been in there for the best part of 20 yrs. Try to rock it up and down a bit then side to side and pulling. Final removal requires you to pull out and up. A sort of rotation, not a straight horizontal pull.  Swearing is optional. I did. A lot. If you haven't replaced those small diameter oil separator pipes (arrowed above) then now is the best time to do that job since they're an arse to do with the thermostat and plenum in situ.
     
     

    (Above) Thermostat housing (inverted here) and alloy connecting tubes removed. Pull all the alloy tubes out of their recesses - wrap in cloth or tape if using a tool to extract them. They're made to tight tolerances so be careful extracting them. You'll want to replace all the 'O' rings. Buy a spare set since they're cheap but you shouldn't need the extra ones if you do this right. Factory original thermostat in view above. When I eventually put my new stat back in the housing I orientated it in the same position. This orientation seems to give optimal coolant flow across the brass capsule containing the wax.
     
     

    (Above) Gently clean up the recesses for the tubes in the housing and engine side. The tubes are a very snug fit even without 'O' rings so you need to be careful to remove only oxidation, not metal. Lube them up. I used Liqui Moly automotive silicone grease. Some use Vaseline. I've read KY jelly works, too.
     
    Well, I screwed up my first attempt and I didn't just nip the edge of the 'O' rings either.....
     
     

    (Above) 'Fools rush in....'?
     
    This is what I did wrong:
     
    1. Put the alloy tubes (with 'O' rings either end) into the thermostat housing first.
    2. Then tried to achieve the impossible by rotating the thermostat housing (with projecting alloy tubes) down and up to meet the other 3 engine-side recesses, and at the same time tried to get the projecting thermostat to clear the lip of it's own circular aperture at the top of the water pump. Reminds me of trying to assemble something like this:-

     
    There's very little, if any, dimensional tolerance to allow a clean engagement of the 3 tubes into the engine and seat the thermostat down into it's aperture all at the same time.
     
    3. I persisted with this approach. (Taking inspiration from Homer Simpson perhaps?) Eventually, after much wrangling, the 'O' rings 'popped' into place (Health Warning: 'popping' is not a good noise when locating these 'O' rings! Read on.) and the thermostat seated down onto the pump.
     
    Buttoned everything up, refilled with coolant, fired up the engine and very quickly had coolant dribbling out from the 'O'rings. Doh!
     
    I had extra 'O'rings but I wasn't going to attempt another go at putting the thermostat in by taking the plenum off again. Resigned myself to doing it with everything in place.
     
    A better, more logical and successful approach:
     
    1. Put 'O' rings onto all 3 alloy tubes. Carefully push the lubed up alloy tubes into the engine-side recesses, not the thermostat housing. Get the tubes absolutely square on to the recesses and press them gently but firmly home. If you don't do this absolutely squarely, with even pressure, you'll nip and edge of an 'O' ring. Practice first it without an 'O' ring. Once you get the hang of this the alloy tubes will slide home with their snug fitting 'O' rings. They don't 'pop' into place. Popping probably means you've nipped an 'O' ring. 
     
    2. Make sure the alloy tubes are pushed home right to the end of their recesses. Now that they're squarely and fully seated you can push each one so it's pointing up slightly just a few degrees. It's not much but it does help. Don't worry, the 'O' rings will still be fully seated. Make sure the alloy tubes are perfectly spaced and aligned ready to eventually engage with the stat housing.
     
    3. Don't put the thermostat into the thermostat housing instead drop it into the coolant pump aperture like this:
     

    (Above) 'Stat sat on top of the coolant pump aperture. Make sure the projecting brass wax capsule of the 'stat is down into, and hard up against edge of, the circular aperture (of the coolant pump) nearest to you. Arrow shows one (others obscured) of the 3 alloy tubes ready in place in their engine-side recesses. 
     
    4. Make sure the VANOS oil line is zip tied to one side. Ditto the large coolant hoses: you need some room to manoeuvre. You only need to undo 2 banjo bolts to swing the VANOS oil line stuff out of the way but new copper washers will be needed for reassembly - 4 washers in total, 2 different sizes. Realoem has all the part numbers.
     
    5. With the 'stat sitting in the coolant pump aperture (as per photo), very carefully move the thermostat housing down onto the 'stat. At the same time lightly engage the 3 recesses of the stat housing with the 3 engine side alloy tubes. Keep everything square and aligned.
     
    6. With your fingers underneath the stat housing,  lift the stat up into the thermostat housing. Seat it fully up into the housing with your fingers - should be an almost flush fit. As you're doing this, continue to lower the 'stat housing down. Maintain firm control, and remaining square,  push the stat housing horizontally onto the 3 engine-side alloy pipes. If everything was lined up everything will slide into place and be a nice snug fit, plus the 3 bolt holes on the pump housing (shown in the photo above) will align perfectly with ones in the 'stat housing.
     
    Once I'd learnt from my initial error the above method was a cinch. They must have done it this way in the factory. 
    Buttoned everything up, filled the system, fired up the engine with cabin temp and blower fan to max. Air auto bleeds out of the cooling system. Ran the engine for 20 minutes, hot enough for the pusher fan etc to kick in. No leaks or coolant loss!
     
    Other thermostat  related stuff:
     

    (Above) Replaced the inner seal inside the stat housing. Bought a cheap bearing puller.
     
     

    (Above) Needs to be pulled out in two stages, rotating through 90 degrees for the second 'pull'. 
     
    The new seal needs pressing in. Carefully.
     

    (Above) Cheap seal press kit worked well.

    (Above) Might be cheaper to just buy the thermostat housing new from BMW since it comes equipped with a pressed in seal!  (The new tools will get used for other stuff no doubt.)

     
     
    Did a little side by side test on the old and new stats:
     

     
     

    (Above) New stat vs old 'stat at 85 degrees C.  
     
    With the new stat the car now warms up faster and runs warmer. Temperature gauge sits at '11.45' instead of just '10.00' (IYSWIM)
     
    Quick photo tour of the other under plenum work carried out: Throttle Position Sensors (TPS)
     

    (Above) Back of the engine hard up against the wiring conduit next to the firewall. The two screw heads hold the sensor in position - Pozidrive screw heads, not hex head unfortunately.
     

     

     
     

    (Above) Did use hex head bolts when fitting the new TPS. So much easier to fit (or remove for that matter!)
     

    (Above) Bit of butchery required to ease extraction of the old TPS on the nearside bank of the engine.
     
    (Below) Vacuum hose for the fuel pressure regulator nearing the end of its useful life. It sits in the 'V' between the two banks of cylinders and gets comprehensively cooked over the years:-

     

    (Above) It's a common source of vacuum leaks on our engines.
     
    Round up photo of replaced parts:-
     

    (Above) The largest hose (bottom hose for the radiator) in the photo is actually the new one since I'm letting my garage guys change this as it's best replaced with good access to the underneath of the car.
     
    Had been putting off replacing all the above as it's often bloody awkward work best suited to people with childlike hands but with 10" long fingers. Mine aren't like that. At all. The thermostat - once I'd worked out the best method - was not that difficult and I reckon could be done quite easily in 2 hours with the plenum remaining on. Getting the stat housing off the car was probably the hardest bit.
     
     
     
     
  23. Like
    DepthHoar got a reaction from Jameswsb in Cool Runnings: E39 M5 thermostat 'O' rings learning curve   
    Thanks for the comments, guys.
     
    For those of you who've read the above thermostat DIY  and are put off by the perceived complexity, don't be. You're basically standing in front of the engine compartment (not lying on your back under the car. Bonus!) undoing nuts/bolts/hoses. Can be achieved without taking the plenum off as well. There's some wrestling involved, for sure, getting the 'stat out but it's not a particularly technical job at all. Have confidence. Different matter for the TPS and Fuel Tank Breather Valve (and its associated pipe work) - they were a bitch of a job mainly because of difficult access and me having banana-like fingers.
     
    Once you get hands-on and into the 'nuts & bolts' of thermostat replacement, the suggested sequence of operations in the DIY write up will make a lot more sense than if you're just a casual reader of the thread who's never done the job.
     
    Hope the write up assists those attempting to find the 'Holy Grail'  of trouble-free M5 thermostat replacement! Certainly worked for me....after the initial trial & error.
  24. Like
    DepthHoar got a reaction from benedwards64 in Cool Runnings: E39 M5 thermostat 'O' rings learning curve   
    'Cool Runnings' was a crap movie. But it's a snappy thread title to describe the operation of my slow-to-warm-up E39 M5.
     
    The problem is the well known progressive failure of the thermostat that results in it opening sooner and remaining open wider than it should. Thermostat replacement has been well documented. There's several long DIY threads on M5Board and many, many tales of woe from a lot of people describing their botched attempts, mangled 'O' rings and coolant leaks. Reading the threads, luck seemed to play a part in whether the outcome was successful since everyone seemed to follow more or less the same processes and procedures, yet many still failed. What's going on? This couldn't have happened in the BMW factory in Germany back in the day; had to be right first time, every time. So there has to be a way of installing the thermostat without chewing up innumerable 'O' rings. Surely?
     
    Was feeling confident that I would find a way. Actually, really confident since I would be removing the air intake plenum so would have excellent access to remove the thing and re-install it. Simples then! What could possibly go wrong? Started well.....
     

    (Above) Here it is. Hours of fun ahead. Early disassembly is fast. Air intake tubes from the MAFs to the plenum removed + the plenum cover. After that drain coolant out of the expansion bottle and the top of the bottom hose. A siphon makes this much easier. Definitely no need to drain all the coolant. I think I got out about 4 litres (of a total of 10 litres) which was enough to carry out the 'stat removal/replacement. (Tightening torque values for the plenum nuts, in two stages, 5NM, starting with the centre four nuts followed by the nuts around the perimeter at 5NM. Then 10NM, again starting with the centre four before moving onto the outer nuts.)
     

    (Above) Plenum cover off reveals the air intake 'trumpets'. Loads of screws/bolts to remove. Trumpets come off first. (No torques values given for the trumpet securing nuts in TIS. I'd recommend 'hand tight' on a spanner or ratchet. Remember the trumpets are just plastic so don't go mad. The nuts are 'nyloc' with a flange and BMW TIS recommends using new ones when reassembling). I also replaced the 4 plenum 'O' rings and the big plenum rubber gasket (visible above) to ensure against un-metered air entering the intake.
     
     

    (Above) Trumpets off. Stuff some kitchen towel down the intakes to keep dirt and debris out. Loads of plenum bolts to remove now. (Torque values: two stage tightening again - 5NM starting with the inner rows then moving to the outer. Repeat using 10NM.) Detach all oil separator rubber hoses from the front and underneath the plenum.
     

    (Above) Got my crayons out for this one. The plan was to replace a load of stuff under the plenum that typically give trouble down the road. Preventative, or planned, maintenance. Usual suspects highlighted above. Basically anything rubber that carries vacuum or tank vapours was changed.  The Throttle Position Sensors (TPS) were also changed and they were a bit of a mare to extract, as was the Fuel Tank Breather Valve.
     
    Back to the thermostat. You can just see two of the (three) shiny alloy tubes that connect the thermostat to the top part of the engine - bottom of above photo.
     
     

    (Above) Thermostat removed. With the plenum out of the way access is great for removal. Remove the VANOS oil junction box that is bolted on to the thermostat (two bolts). 3 bolts hold down the thermostat housing to the top of the coolant pump. (Tightening torques for these 3 bolts: 10NM). Be patient removing the 'stat. It'll resist if it's the original and been in there for the best part of 20 yrs. Try to rock it up and down a bit then side to side and pulling. Final removal requires you to pull out and up. A sort of rotation, not a straight horizontal pull.  Swearing is optional. I did. A lot. If you haven't replaced those small diameter oil separator pipes (arrowed above) then now is the best time to do that job since they're an arse to do with the thermostat and plenum in situ.
     
     

    (Above) Thermostat housing (inverted here) and alloy connecting tubes removed. Pull all the alloy tubes out of their recesses - wrap in cloth or tape if using a tool to extract them. They're made to tight tolerances so be careful extracting them. You'll want to replace all the 'O' rings. Buy a spare set since they're cheap but you shouldn't need the extra ones if you do this right. Factory original thermostat in view above. When I eventually put my new stat back in the housing I orientated it in the same position. This orientation seems to give optimal coolant flow across the brass capsule containing the wax.
     
     

    (Above) Gently clean up the recesses for the tubes in the housing and engine side. The tubes are a very snug fit even without 'O' rings so you need to be careful to remove only oxidation, not metal. Lube them up. I used Liqui Moly automotive silicone grease. Some use Vaseline. I've read KY jelly works, too.
     
    Well, I screwed up my first attempt and I didn't just nip the edge of the 'O' rings either.....
     
     

    (Above) 'Fools rush in....'?
     
    This is what I did wrong:
     
    1. Put the alloy tubes (with 'O' rings either end) into the thermostat housing first.
    2. Then tried to achieve the impossible by rotating the thermostat housing (with projecting alloy tubes) down and up to meet the other 3 engine-side recesses, and at the same time tried to get the projecting thermostat to clear the lip of it's own circular aperture at the top of the water pump. Reminds me of trying to assemble something like this:-

     
    There's very little, if any, dimensional tolerance to allow a clean engagement of the 3 tubes into the engine and seat the thermostat down into it's aperture all at the same time.
     
    3. I persisted with this approach. (Taking inspiration from Homer Simpson perhaps?) Eventually, after much wrangling, the 'O' rings 'popped' into place (Health Warning: 'popping' is not a good noise when locating these 'O' rings! Read on.) and the thermostat seated down onto the pump.
     
    Buttoned everything up, refilled with coolant, fired up the engine and very quickly had coolant dribbling out from the 'O'rings. Doh!
     
    I had extra 'O'rings but I wasn't going to attempt another go at putting the thermostat in by taking the plenum off again. Resigned myself to doing it with everything in place.
     
    A better, more logical and successful approach:
     
    1. Put 'O' rings onto all 3 alloy tubes. Carefully push the lubed up alloy tubes into the engine-side recesses, not the thermostat housing. Get the tubes absolutely square on to the recesses and press them gently but firmly home. If you don't do this absolutely squarely, with even pressure, you'll nip and edge of an 'O' ring. Practice first it without an 'O' ring. Once you get the hang of this the alloy tubes will slide home with their snug fitting 'O' rings. They don't 'pop' into place. Popping probably means you've nipped an 'O' ring. 
     
    2. Make sure the alloy tubes are pushed home right to the end of their recesses. Now that they're squarely and fully seated you can push each one so it's pointing up slightly just a few degrees. It's not much but it does help. Don't worry, the 'O' rings will still be fully seated. Make sure the alloy tubes are perfectly spaced and aligned ready to eventually engage with the stat housing.
     
    3. Don't put the thermostat into the thermostat housing instead drop it into the coolant pump aperture like this:
     

    (Above) 'Stat sat on top of the coolant pump aperture. Make sure the projecting brass wax capsule of the 'stat is down into, and hard up against edge of, the circular aperture (of the coolant pump) nearest to you. Arrow shows one (others obscured) of the 3 alloy tubes ready in place in their engine-side recesses. 
     
    4. Make sure the VANOS oil line is zip tied to one side. Ditto the large coolant hoses: you need some room to manoeuvre. You only need to undo 2 banjo bolts to swing the VANOS oil line stuff out of the way but new copper washers will be needed for reassembly - 4 washers in total, 2 different sizes. Realoem has all the part numbers.
     
    5. With the 'stat sitting in the coolant pump aperture (as per photo), very carefully move the thermostat housing down onto the 'stat. At the same time lightly engage the 3 recesses of the stat housing with the 3 engine side alloy tubes. Keep everything square and aligned.
     
    6. With your fingers underneath the stat housing,  lift the stat up into the thermostat housing. Seat it fully up into the housing with your fingers - should be an almost flush fit. As you're doing this, continue to lower the 'stat housing down. Maintain firm control, and remaining square,  push the stat housing horizontally onto the 3 engine-side alloy pipes. If everything was lined up everything will slide into place and be a nice snug fit, plus the 3 bolt holes on the pump housing (shown in the photo above) will align perfectly with ones in the 'stat housing.
     
    Once I'd learnt from my initial error the above method was a cinch. They must have done it this way in the factory. 
    Buttoned everything up, filled the system, fired up the engine with cabin temp and blower fan to max. Air auto bleeds out of the cooling system. Ran the engine for 20 minutes, hot enough for the pusher fan etc to kick in. No leaks or coolant loss!
     
    Other thermostat  related stuff:
     

    (Above) Replaced the inner seal inside the stat housing. Bought a cheap bearing puller.
     
     

    (Above) Needs to be pulled out in two stages, rotating through 90 degrees for the second 'pull'. 
     
    The new seal needs pressing in. Carefully.
     

    (Above) Cheap seal press kit worked well.

    (Above) Might be cheaper to just buy the thermostat housing new from BMW since it comes equipped with a pressed in seal!  (The new tools will get used for other stuff no doubt.)

     
     
    Did a little side by side test on the old and new stats:
     

     
     

    (Above) New stat vs old 'stat at 85 degrees C.  
     
    With the new stat the car now warms up faster and runs warmer. Temperature gauge sits at '11.45' instead of just '10.00' (IYSWIM)
     
    Quick photo tour of the other under plenum work carried out: Throttle Position Sensors (TPS)
     

    (Above) Back of the engine hard up against the wiring conduit next to the firewall. The two screw heads hold the sensor in position - Pozidrive screw heads, not hex head unfortunately.
     

     

     
     

    (Above) Did use hex head bolts when fitting the new TPS. So much easier to fit (or remove for that matter!)
     

    (Above) Bit of butchery required to ease extraction of the old TPS on the nearside bank of the engine.
     
    (Below) Vacuum hose for the fuel pressure regulator nearing the end of its useful life. It sits in the 'V' between the two banks of cylinders and gets comprehensively cooked over the years:-

     

    (Above) It's a common source of vacuum leaks on our engines.
     
    Round up photo of replaced parts:-
     

    (Above) The largest hose (bottom hose for the radiator) in the photo is actually the new one since I'm letting my garage guys change this as it's best replaced with good access to the underneath of the car.
     
    Had been putting off replacing all the above as it's often bloody awkward work best suited to people with childlike hands but with 10" long fingers. Mine aren't like that. At all. The thermostat - once I'd worked out the best method - was not that difficult and I reckon could be done quite easily in 2 hours with the plenum remaining on. Getting the stat housing off the car was probably the hardest bit.
     
     
     
     
  25. Like
    DepthHoar got a reaction from d_a_n1979 in Aircon   
    You've got climate control not 'regular' air conditioning.
     
    https://www.raccars.co.uk/news/what-is-the-difference-between-air-con-and-climate-control
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