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N47 Timing Chain issue highlighted on Watchdog - Relevant to F10?


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36 replies to this topic

#1 HV4

HV4
  • Current Car:F30 335d xDrive (prev 520d + PPK)

Posted 12 June 2013 - 09:08 PM

The programme talked about this complete engine failure affecting 1 3 and 5 series and mentioned 2006 - 2009, but I wondered if this is still an issue with the F10, or are we at least fairly safe from this issue?

HV4

#2 Del Boy

Del Boy
  • LocationUK
  • Current Car:2012 F10 520d SE Auto

Posted 12 June 2013 - 09:12 PM

Most definitely! I think you need to read my thread below this one.

 

Just a pointer this is my current fault code list:

 

IMG_1316_zps60d31bb2.jpg


Edited by Del Boy, 12 June 2013 - 09:12 PM.

Drives: 2013 (63) LCI BMW 520d M Sport Auto - Jet Black. 2011 (61) BMW 520d SE Auto - Jet Black.


#3 baus

baus
  • Current Car:04 E60 525d Auto

Posted 13 June 2013 - 12:10 AM

http://www.bbc.co.uk...ngine-2007-2009


UNLOCK SECRET OBC & check engine operating temperature.      

How to change the: main thermostat. EGR stat
 

E60 525d Auto. SA255 Sports steering wheel, SA438 Fine wood trim, SA459 Memory: seat, mirror & steering wheel , SA522 Xenon lights, SA524 Directional headlights, SA534 Climate control advanced, SA609 Navigation system professional, SA644 Bluetooth handsfree, SA672 CD multi-changer.
Retrofits: SA430 folding mirrors + SA563 puddle lights, Driver's folding mirror button, 3.5mm jack aux cable.
Coded: Bi-Xenon full beams, MP3 playback, AUX in, digital speedo display, comfort folding mirrors, chirp on lock/unlock, permanent speedo illumination.

Remap: EGR delete by TheEnd @ endtuning.com


#4 baus

baus
  • Current Car:04 E60 525d Auto

Posted 13 June 2013 - 12:35 AM

http://www.bbc.co.uk...rammes/p01bbfsl


UNLOCK SECRET OBC & check engine operating temperature.      

How to change the: main thermostat. EGR stat
 

E60 525d Auto. SA255 Sports steering wheel, SA438 Fine wood trim, SA459 Memory: seat, mirror & steering wheel , SA522 Xenon lights, SA524 Directional headlights, SA534 Climate control advanced, SA609 Navigation system professional, SA644 Bluetooth handsfree, SA672 CD multi-changer.
Retrofits: SA430 folding mirrors + SA563 puddle lights, Driver's folding mirror button, 3.5mm jack aux cable.
Coded: Bi-Xenon full beams, MP3 playback, AUX in, digital speedo display, comfort folding mirrors, chirp on lock/unlock, permanent speedo illumination.

Remap: EGR delete by TheEnd @ endtuning.com


#5 HV4

HV4
  • Current Car:F30 335d xDrive (prev 520d + PPK)

Posted 13 June 2013 - 08:09 AM

Thanks Del Boy and Baus

 

Interesting that the article suggests that this only affects the E60 age cars, so I wonder if Del Boy's experience is just a chance event (impressive fault code list!).  I just spoke to BMW (not expecting much of course) who said that there wasn't a major engine redesign between the E60 and F10 - not convinced that they are right though given that the swirl flap design changed amongst other things.  BMW also did their usual deny all knowledge and 'sorry that you were worried by Watchdog' approach rather than admit to anything, as you might expect.

 

I really like my car and had intended to keep it until about 2017/18, by then it will have done about 100k miles, and then probably replace with the new model 5 series.  If this becomes a common problem, I may have to rethink.

 

HV4


Edited by HV4, 13 June 2013 - 08:12 AM.


#6 Derek Mc

Derek Mc
  • LocationEast Ayrshire
  • Occupation:Commercial Interior Partitioning
  • Current Car:09 e60 BMW 520d SE Business Edition

Posted 13 June 2013 - 08:11 AM

I have just posted the PUMA doc on another Watchdog post here it clearly states that it affects cars up to 03/11


(oOO \ (||||)(||||) / OOo)

Never argue with an idiot, they drag you down to their level then beat you with experience.

199396.png

97a5118a-dc07-4c00-837a-5ae4b15f2560_zps


#7 E39mad

E39mad
  • LocationHappy Valley, Cheshire
  • Occupation:BTL expert
  • Current Car:F11 520d SE Auto

Posted 13 June 2013 - 08:13 AM

Don't know if it's a rumour but I heard the timing chain guides were redesigned from March 2011 production onwards. If so clearly they are more than aware of the problem. As most cars sold since 2007 are 2.0 diesels (116d, 118d, 120d, 123d, 318d, 320d, 520d) BMW are trying to bury their head in the sand and deal with each one as it comes up. Too big a job for a quick fix and full recall!!


F11 520d SE sport auto, Deep Sea Blue, Oyster/Black nappa, heated Comfort seats, advanced aircon, 18" alloys, folding mirrors.

 

E36 328i convertible Mtec manual, Avus Blue, Silver leather, Harmon Kardon

 

Gone but not forgotten E39s 530i Individual 525d Sport Touring manual

th_E39frontF11side.jpgth_IMG_20131030_115506_zpsf075f67f.jpgth_IMG_20130505_163328_zps2dd5c747.jpg th_525dathomeAug08-1.jpg


#8 Derek Mc

Derek Mc
  • LocationEast Ayrshire
  • Occupation:Commercial Interior Partitioning
  • Current Car:09 e60 BMW 520d SE Business Edition

Posted 13 June 2013 - 08:14 AM

Don't know if it's a rumour but I heard the timing chain guides were redesigned from March 2011 production onwards. If so clearly they are more than aware of the problem. As most cars sold since 2007 are 2.0 diesels (116d, 118d, 120d, 123d, 318d, 320d, 520d) BMW are trying to bury their head in the sand and deal with each one as it comes up. Too big a job for a quick fix and full recall!!

Spot on, exactly what is happening. Keep a full S/H if possible a BMW warranty and life will be good if you are one of the very unlucky ones affected.


(oOO \ (||||)(||||) / OOo)

Never argue with an idiot, they drag you down to their level then beat you with experience.

199396.png

97a5118a-dc07-4c00-837a-5ae4b15f2560_zps


#9 Del Boy

Del Boy
  • LocationUK
  • Current Car:2012 F10 520d SE Auto

Posted 13 June 2013 - 09:14 AM

Thanks Del Boy and Baus

Interesting that the article suggests that this only affects the E60 age cars, so I wonder if Del Boy's experience is just a chance event (impressive fault code list!). I just spoke to BMW (not expecting much of course) who said that there wasn't a major engine redesign between the E60 and F10 - not convinced that they are right though given that the swirl flap design changed amongst other things. BMW also did their usual deny all knowledge and 'sorry that you were worried by Watchdog' approach rather than admit to anything, as you might expect.

I really like my car and had intended to keep it until about 2017/18, by then it will have done about 100k miles, and then probably replace with the new model 5 series. If this becomes a common problem, I may have to rethink.

HV4


Definitely not a bad luck thing, a friend of mine has lots of these cars, and he also has had lots of engine failures. Some with 2012 cars.

Drives: 2013 (63) LCI BMW 520d M Sport Auto - Jet Black. 2011 (61) BMW 520d SE Auto - Jet Black.


#10 HV4

HV4
  • Current Car:F30 335d xDrive (prev 520d + PPK)

Posted 13 June 2013 - 09:53 AM

Thanks chaps - very informative, but not what I wanted to hear!

 

I wonder what the chance of failure is on my car between now 38k miles and 100k miles when I was intending to sell.  My car has a service pack and will be maintained by BMW after that so I should qualify for goodwill.  I don't normally bother with warranties, preferring to take the risk myself.  Anyone like to have a guess at the chance of this failure - 5%, 10%, 20%... so I can consider whether extending the BMW warranty makes sense?

 

I haven't noticed any change in noise that my engine makes, but it looks like I should listen out for a change...

 

HV4



#11 Del Boy

Del Boy
  • LocationUK
  • Current Car:2012 F10 520d SE Auto

Posted 13 June 2013 - 10:02 AM

Thanks chaps - very informative, but not what I wanted to hear!

I wonder what the chance of failure is on my car between now 38k miles and 100k miles when I was intending to sell. My car has a service pack and will be maintained by BMW after that so I should qualify for goodwill. I don't normally bother with warranties, preferring to take the risk myself. Anyone like to have a guess at the chance of this failure - 5%, 10%, 20%... so I can consider whether extending the BMW warranty makes sense?

I haven't noticed any change in noise that my engine makes, but it looks like I should listen out for a change...

HV4


Mine made no noises, and then went bang, bear in mind that was after the timing chain had been repaired by BMW and the Crankshaft then decided to give up. The crankshaft isn't completely fault free after talking to a BMW Tech the other day.

Drives: 2013 (63) LCI BMW 520d M Sport Auto - Jet Black. 2011 (61) BMW 520d SE Auto - Jet Black.


#12 HV4

HV4
  • Current Car:F30 335d xDrive (prev 520d + PPK)

Posted 13 June 2013 - 10:40 AM

Thanks Del Boy.  That is a concern.  Your situation does sound quite bizarre with 2 replacement engines in such a short time.  I wonder if your dealer is doing something wrong.

 

Perhaps the publicity that Watchdog bring to this issue will make getting a replacement / better goodwill payment easier.  Ten years ago manufacturers could get away with telling their customers that the fault was a one off and therefore not covered, but forums like this are extremely helpful in disproving that.  I would have thought that now this fault is becoming common knowledge, BMW dealers would struggle to defend a claim under the Sales of Goods Act in the first 6 years of the car's life, so would be tempted to settle a claim without going to court.

 

Unless people suggest otherwise, I assume that my risk of that failure is circa 10% up to 100k miles, and a cost of 0 - £5k depending on how soon it happens, so perhaps this shouldn't be a major factor in deciding when to sell?

 

HV4



#13 Del Boy

Del Boy
  • LocationUK
  • Current Car:2012 F10 520d SE Auto

Posted 13 June 2013 - 10:51 AM

My advice would be don't have a BMW that isn't under warranty.

Drives: 2013 (63) LCI BMW 520d M Sport Auto - Jet Black. 2011 (61) BMW 520d SE Auto - Jet Black.


#14 HV4

HV4
  • Current Car:F30 335d xDrive (prev 520d + PPK)

Posted 13 June 2013 - 11:48 AM

My general approach is to run risks like that, and accept the occasional big bill, believing that I save more in warranty premium costs than I spend in bills over the longer term.  This is my 5th BMW and it has worked so far.

 

If my estimation of 10% chance of failure before 100k miles and 0 - £5k cost is correct, then the real value of the 4 year warranty is IRO £250 for this particular failure.  I would have thought that BMW would charge me £3k for a warranty over that time, although that covers me for other problems of course. 

 

While I appreciate that some prefer to avoid big bills, unless I have substantially underestimated the risk/cost, not taking the warranty still seems to make sense to me.

 

HV4



#15 DSL

DSL

Posted 13 June 2013 - 01:48 PM

Anyone know how much a 4th & 5th year BMW warranty is on a F10/11? Have Warranty Direct cover on my Disco 3 & never had it pay out less than it cost. Was hoping not to have to do that with the BM but might have to reconsider. :(

#16 E39mad

E39mad
  • LocationHappy Valley, Cheshire
  • Occupation:BTL expert
  • Current Car:F11 520d SE Auto

Posted 13 June 2013 - 02:45 PM

Petition to BMW for a recall here:

 

http://www.avaaz.org..._engine_recall/


F11 520d SE sport auto, Deep Sea Blue, Oyster/Black nappa, heated Comfort seats, advanced aircon, 18" alloys, folding mirrors.

 

E36 328i convertible Mtec manual, Avus Blue, Silver leather, Harmon Kardon

 

Gone but not forgotten E39s 530i Individual 525d Sport Touring manual

th_E39frontF11side.jpgth_IMG_20131030_115506_zpsf075f67f.jpgth_IMG_20130505_163328_zps2dd5c747.jpg th_525dathomeAug08-1.jpg


#17 Derek Mc

Derek Mc
  • LocationEast Ayrshire
  • Occupation:Commercial Interior Partitioning
  • Current Car:09 e60 BMW 520d SE Business Edition

Posted 13 June 2013 - 02:58 PM

Excellent, signed done!


(oOO \ (||||)(||||) / OOo)

Never argue with an idiot, they drag you down to their level then beat you with experience.

199396.png

97a5118a-dc07-4c00-837a-5ae4b15f2560_zps


#18 Scouse-F10-520d-SE

Scouse-F10-520d-SE
  • Current Car:F10-520d-SE

Posted 14 June 2013 - 02:28 PM

Just sighned this petition myself , first post here so hi to all , i came from an E90 320d , which after i bought started reading about the swirl flap's saga , i had no problem with the car after doing 40k in it , it had 36k on it when i bought it from BMW Williams as an AUC , i bought my now F10 from the same franchise dealer with just 13500 on the clock  now after reading this carry on with the timing chain's i wish i went back to Toyota as i was going to do.

But in saying that , i rolled over the BMW warranty with the E90 and have every intention of doing the very same thing with the F10 ( A no brainer for me ).

Regards

Scouse



#19 stevie73

stevie73
  • Current Car:f10 520d se

Posted 13 October 2013 - 10:39 AM

WOW!  Only had my N47 F10 for a couple of weeks and just read about the timing issues.  Just got a quote for extended warranty......Over £1000 per year!!  WHAT!!!!! :shock:



#20 BLooD

BLooD
  • LocationEssex UK.
  • Current Car:530d M-sport 2006

Posted 13 October 2013 - 07:49 PM

WOW!  Only had my N47 F10 for a couple of weeks and just read about the timing issues.  Just got a quote for extended warranty......Over £1000 per year!!  WHAT!!!!! :shock:

 

Covering the cost of a potential engine failure maybe?


2006 BMW 530D M-Sport, Carbon black/Grey Dakota leather
Visibility pack, Media pack, DAB radio, ISO fix front seat, High beam assist, Individual head-liner anthracite, M rear spoiler, M135 18" wheels.
Retrofits:- LCI-CCC, SA430 ext: mirrors dimming/folding, SA616 BMW online, SA563 extended light package, SA534 AC automatic, SA437 poplar wood trim, Poplar wood handbrake handle, Poplar wood gear selector, Remote key fold mirrors, mirror kerb function, Front and rear Hi-FI tweeters.
Mods:- All mods removed.


#21 stevie73

stevie73
  • Current Car:f10 520d se

Posted 13 October 2013 - 08:28 PM

Covering the cost of a potential engine failure maybe?

Perhaps they should offer it as an optional upgrade?.....  

 

"Sir, we know you are buying an expensive luxury car built by one of the most reputed manufacturers in the world, but you will need to pay £1000 every year as your engine is likely to fail due to poor design.  Just sign here sir....."

 

I wonder if they featured the fault in their sales brochures and marketing campaigns, how many they would have sold?



#22 HV4

HV4
  • Current Car:F30 335d xDrive (prev 520d + PPK)

Posted 14 October 2013 - 08:06 AM

Not sure why you have been quoted £1000.  I have just been quoted £521 by BMW for their DriveLine cover, which includes the engine transmission and drivetrain, and includes BMW Emergency Service.  The Comprehensive cover is £756.  I'm not sure that I will take them up on this though.  This is based on a car with less than 50k miles.

 

I think BMW's Emergency Service is feeble, having called them three times over the last 15 years.  On two of those occasions they sent out third party recovery firms who were utterly clueless - either not bringing the required parts they were asked for, or being so workshy that they had to be pushed into doing their job.  I assume they must be paid for turning up, and having to actually do anything is too much like hard work.

 

HV4



#23 SuperDave

SuperDave
  • LocationThe North

Posted 14 October 2013 - 06:12 PM

That's about 80% more than the cost of my wife's 118d with under 50k!


Currently lapsed owner....

 

Garage back-catalogue

 

E39 530i Sport Individual | Nav | Xenons | Style 37s

F10 520d SE manual | Nav | VDC | Hi-fi Pro | 18" Style 328s

F11 530d M-sport Auto | NavF10 520d M-sport Manual | Nav | 19s

E34 525i Sport manual | Stock

E39 520i Sport Touring manual | Xenon retrofit | Eagle F1s on Style 66s

E60 525d (3.0) LCI manual | Eagle F1s on Style 244s

E39 528i Sport manual | Imola Red | 17" Style 66s

E39 530dA Sport auto | Comms | HIDs | Hi-fi | Intravee | 18" M-Parallels

E39 530d SE manual | 17" Style 81sE39 528i SE manual | Eibach suspension | 17" Style 32s


#24 HV4

HV4
  • Current Car:F30 335d xDrive (prev 520d + PPK)

Posted 15 October 2013 - 07:54 AM

That is quite a difference, but roughly in proportion to the relative cost of the cars I suppose.

 

My car is 3 years old in about 3 weeks and was in for its first MOT and end of warranty check yesterday.  I spoke to the service manager who I know quite well and trust, about the timing chain issue.  His view was that the only failures tend to be at very high mileages and often when not properly maintained.  If he had been trying to sell me a car, I would take this with a pinch of salt, but in this case he suggested not taking the extended warranty.  BMW would cover the vast majority of the repair if it happens to a lowish mileage car under 6 years old which has been maintained by BMW apparently.  My car currently has 43k and I am adding about 12k per year at the moment.

 

I had recently considered replacing it with a 530d MSport facelift, but cooled off the idea once I had heard their trade in offer.  I might hang on for the new 5 series in 3/4 years.

 

HV4

 


Edited by HV4, 15 October 2013 - 07:54 AM.


#25 alpinaman

alpinaman
  • LocationHigh Peak

Posted 15 October 2013 - 08:06 AM

Hmmm

I have seen a chain jump with less than 20k on the car,it was about 18 months old so was done under warranty..

Understeer is when you hit the wall with the front of the car. Oversteer is when you hit the wall with the back of the car. Horsepower is how fast you hit the wall and torque is how far you send the wall across the field once youve hit it.


#26 E39mad

E39mad
  • LocationHappy Valley, Cheshire
  • Occupation:BTL expert
  • Current Car:F11 520d SE Auto

Posted 15 October 2013 - 08:50 AM

Hmmm

I have seen a chain jump with less than 20k on the car,it was about 18 months old so was done under warranty..

 

What was the year of manufacture G?

 

There are now a good number of leggy F10/11 520d's out there. How many timing chain issues have come to light with this model?


F11 520d SE sport auto, Deep Sea Blue, Oyster/Black nappa, heated Comfort seats, advanced aircon, 18" alloys, folding mirrors.

 

E36 328i convertible Mtec manual, Avus Blue, Silver leather, Harmon Kardon

 

Gone but not forgotten E39s 530i Individual 525d Sport Touring manual

th_E39frontF11side.jpgth_IMG_20131030_115506_zpsf075f67f.jpgth_IMG_20130505_163328_zps2dd5c747.jpg th_525dathomeAug08-1.jpg


#27 j4s

j4s
  • LocationBarry, South Wales
  • Occupation:Network Consultant
  • Current Car:BMW 520d F10

Posted 15 October 2013 - 08:58 AM

My F10 520d is 3 years in November.  Had the letter from BMW about extended warranty, and mine comes in at £540.00 comprehensive, although I did take out a small excess to lower that cost, mileage is 30k.

 

I was hoping not to bother with the extended warranty, my previous couple of 3 series have all survived into 5-6 years without needing any major maintenance, but in the back of my mind I do worry about the timing chain going and screwing up my life.

 

So I'm probably going to take the cover just for that peace of mind.

 

I also need to sort out an MOT, damm it.......



#28 alpinaman

alpinaman
  • LocationHigh Peak

Posted 15 October 2013 - 10:56 AM

What was the year of manufacture G?

 

There are now a good number of leggy F10/11 520d's out there. How many timing chain issues have come to light with this model?

 

 

IIRC it was a 2010 model,it carries a private plate,

 

Not sure on failure numbers at all,heard a lot of people in the trade saying they have seen some go,and i have a friend who is a BMW Indy and he has seen quite a few over the different models..


Understeer is when you hit the wall with the front of the car. Oversteer is when you hit the wall with the back of the car. Horsepower is how fast you hit the wall and torque is how far you send the wall across the field once youve hit it.


#29 Del Boy

Del Boy
  • LocationUK
  • Current Car:2012 F10 520d SE Auto

Posted 15 October 2013 - 10:57 AM

F10's have just as much a chance of chain issues as any other N47 car despite what BMW say. I've seen them go well under 20k, and go at higher miles say 60-80k, some you don't see go at all.

Drives: 2013 (63) LCI BMW 520d M Sport Auto - Jet Black. 2011 (61) BMW 520d SE Auto - Jet Black.


#30 alpinaman

alpinaman
  • LocationHigh Peak

Posted 15 October 2013 - 11:02 AM

Are there lays the problem eh Del ?

 

You cant buy one in the knowledge that its going to be ok,unless the chain and tensioners have been changed i guess??


Understeer is when you hit the wall with the front of the car. Oversteer is when you hit the wall with the back of the car. Horsepower is how fast you hit the wall and torque is how far you send the wall across the field once youve hit it.





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