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Finally an answer regarding lifetime filled transmissions !


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104 replies to this topic

#1 michael.d.s.

michael.d.s.
  • LocationQuarter, Hamilton, South Lanarkshire.

Posted 30 March 2011 - 07:10 PM

Ok this argument has went on long enough, I contacted ZF and this is what they said,

Hi Michael,

"Lifetime" fluids are just that, a lifetime lubricant that does not require change in a specified lifetime.

To explain further, the general terms or conditions result in an average lifetime of a passenger car of 10 years or 200,000Klm's ( or roughly 125,000mls ), so your fluid should be changed at these points to ensure good service life of your transmission. Should you decide ( as many do ) to change the fluid more regularly then this will not harm the transmission life, in the same manner, the oil is produced to last the above times & the oil companies would argue that changing the oil at lesser intervals is of no added benefit. To this matter, it is really personal choice wether or not to change the fluids at lesser than the above specified.

I hope the above helps to explain the term " lifetime" fluid.

Thanks & Best Regards
Darren Hayward
Service Advisor - Transmissions & Steering
Commercial Vehicles & Passenger Cars


96 523i se auto silver, ZF and GM transmissions repaired or rebuilt.(Manual gearboxes also repaired and rebuilt)
http://t3.gstatic.co...31xhNGP612Q&t=1

#2 Eddy Matthews

Eddy Matthews
  • LocationThornaby, Cleveland, NE England

Posted 30 March 2011 - 07:13 PM

So at 130,000 miles, mine is overdue for changing! ;)

Regards
Eddy

#3 valmiki

valmiki
  • LocationSunny Swansea

Posted 30 March 2011 - 07:19 PM

Well, that's me convinced 100% now, can't wait to get it done (and meet everyone!)
Current: 2001 530i Sport Touring Auto
Prev: 2001 520iSE Saloon

#4 DennisCooper

DennisCooper
  • LocationSlough West London/Heathrow
  • Current Car:Ex Police - E39 530d Touring

Posted 30 March 2011 - 07:28 PM

Hi,

Nice to get some authoritative feedback from specialists like that. However, looking into it a little further, and from what I was told by various specialists, is that other components are typically what fails - I've mentioned it before but I'm a bit vague, some sort of spline or shaft that gradually deteriorates over time and disintegrates. When it fails it fails. The gearbox fluid may well 'still' be in good condition etc or as per above, have a good amount of serviceable and performance life left in it to go well beyond the 'reasonable lifetime timespan given of 10 years/125,000 miles' - but to change that part means splitting open the box so you might as well renew everything. So theoretically, it shouldn't harm the transmission, however in practice as other bits wear and disintegrate the risk of failure builds up. This falls within the often reported scenario where someone has decided to change their gearbox fluid at say 85,000 miles with no history of issues previously, and then upon rebuild, it's failed a few thousand miles later. Theories seem to be that the disintegrating 'bits' are somehow 'gluing' the fluid to work well, and when fresh oil is used as it's thinner that 'gluing' effect (sorry don't know how else to describe it!) is lost and the gearbox has failed. Then the other end of the scale where theres examples of original transmissions working fine and mileages up in the 250K range with no fluid changes!

Boils down to the fact no one can definitively say a gearbox will or won't give up should an oil change be carried out or not carried out! - if you have an autobox, continue to drive it as is until you do get a problem!

Cheers, Dennis!

Tel: 07708 804500 10am-9pm 

DSC08000_zps2b6f439e.jpg

 

2003 Ex-Police E39 530 Diesel Touring. Alpine White, 260,000+ Miles & climbing! 

 
Wheels;
19" Hartge Nova 5 - Custom painted 'Flash Chrome' centres & Polished Lips (set of 5)
19" Hartge Nova 5 - Awaiting custom re-finish (set of 4)
19" Hartge Classic - Custom powder coated centres in shadow chrome & diamond cut/no lacquer lips (set of 5)
20" Hartge Classic - Awaiting custom re-finish (set of 4)
 
Audio;
Full Custom Audio install - Arc Audio KS Mini ampliifers. DLS 5.25" 2 way front components & 4" 2 way co-axials. JL Audio 8W3-V3 subwoofer in stealth enclosure. Parrot Asteroid Smart head unit, custom door builds for DLS front stage & Earthquake SWS6 flatline subwoofers, custom rear pillar speaker pods. LumiDock iPod holder, 
 
External;
H&R Springs, ExoticsTuning front lip spoiler, Sport F/R bumpers upgrade, Carbon Fibre effect printed Vinyl roof wrap, High gloss black vinyl window trim wrap, Hartge bonnet/hood & tailgate badges, rear rooftip spoiler, matt Black kidney grille, projector foglamps.
 
Internal;
Hartge auto gearlever, Hartge Handbrake handle, Hartge door sill strips, E46 M3 CSL Alcantara/Tri-stitch SMG steering wheel, full Black Leather Sport seats, 
 
Engine;
 
Custom ECU re-map biased for more Power & Torque in Steptronic mode, EGR delete, K&N induction kit, Stainless steel de-cat, Stainless steel exhaust backbox with twin oval pipes.
 
Plenty more modifications to come!

#5 michael.d.s.

michael.d.s.
  • LocationQuarter, Hamilton, South Lanarkshire.

Posted 30 March 2011 - 08:47 PM

Yes dennis its well documented that components within the box have their weaknesses, however the fluid itself doesn't have any way of preventing mechanical failure if changed or instigating it.

this is the point i am making.

Also I feel there is no one more specialist than the people that actually build these transmissions, no amount of gearbox specialists can really better that.

The reason for this thread is due to people on this forum stating that if I service their transmission for them, this will result in mechanical failure, It has came from the horse's mouth so to speak.

thanks

Michael
96 523i se auto silver, ZF and GM transmissions repaired or rebuilt.(Manual gearboxes also repaired and rebuilt)
http://t3.gstatic.co...31xhNGP612Q&t=1

#6 Jamesthefirst

Jamesthefirst
  • LocationGlasgow
  • Current Car:w204 c320cdi with added goodness!

Posted 30 March 2011 - 08:58 PM

Well Michael, my manual box certainly feels slicker (when warm at least) after the fluid change and my car has a genuine 75k miles on it. No idea if it'll last longer but it has most definetly benefitted from it.

Job well done mr!
:wink:

#7 hardy

hardy
  • LocationLondon
  • Occupation:Bailiff

Posted 30 March 2011 - 09:02 PM

The reason for this thread is due to people on this forum stating that if I service their transmission for them, this will result in mechanical failure,

Michael


Come on mate ..its just a few individuals who think like that,majority of us have faith in your work ,appreciate all your help in the past and know how things works in practical life.
When I raced a car last it was at a time when sex was safe and racing was dangerous. Now, it’s the other way roundPosted Image

#8 Eddy Matthews

Eddy Matthews
  • LocationThornaby, Cleveland, NE England

Posted 30 March 2011 - 09:39 PM

The reason for this thread is due to people on this forum stating that if I service their transmission for them, this will result in mechanical failure, It has came from the horse's mouth so to speak.

thanks

Michael


I certainly don't think that for one minute, in fact not even for one second!

I know that you know what your doing, and if you do a fluid change on my transmission and it fails in a few thousand miles, there is only one possible reason It was going to fail anyway!.

Correctly changing the fluid won't make any difference to that fact - If your just changing the fluid, how the hell could you know it was a waste of time, unless the gearbox was already exhibiting a fault when driving? Anyone with more than two brain cells should be able to figure that out!

If the fluid change was done by a halfwit or someone that simply didn't know how to do it correctly then I could see the arguement, but NOT in your case!

Regards
Eddy

#9 alpinaman

alpinaman
  • LocationHigh Peak

Posted 30 March 2011 - 09:44 PM

Let me advise you Turv....

At 10 years + you tranny oil will be black!!

If you follow my thread on the E60 tranny sump change,my oil at 6 years old was heavily contaminated,what went back in was honey coloured in comparison..

But like you say,its personal choice but let me ask you this.Would and do you apply the same principle to your engine? The oil in an auto tranny is given a similar amount of wear and tear within its components..

Its perfectly safe to change the oil in an Autbox as long as procedure is correctly applied,there is no "black art" its just an oil and filter change..

Its a no brainer IMHO..

f1d45c7f-c6d0-457c-8c0c-4b476ba13e6a_zps130bcd2e-7a6a-45ae-bfb0-567f30f8ad94_zps

 

 

 

 

 

Understeer is when you hit the wall with the front of the car. Oversteer is when you hit the wall with the back of the car. Horsepower is how fast you hit the wall and torque is how far you send the wall across the field once youve hit it.


#10 Jamesthefirst

Jamesthefirst
  • LocationGlasgow
  • Current Car:w204 c320cdi with added goodness!

Posted 30 March 2011 - 09:52 PM

Tell him feck all fella, make your own mind up with your own judgement and from the wealth of knowledge that can be gleaned from many a source on here. At the end of the day, its your car and your choice if you want to replace gearbox oil or not. And if it does all go tits up at least you will have at least two people who can rebuild the box :lol:

#11 Slooby

Slooby
  • Current Car:'99 Carbon Black E39 M5

Posted 30 March 2011 - 10:00 PM

Ok this argument has went on long enough, I contacted ZF and this is what they said


Michael, have you tried contacting GM for their take on it? IMO the GM box used in the E39 diesels is not as well made as the ZF units and I fear that the 'lifetime' of the oil used in them is not as long as that of ZF.

In my case changing the oil certainly didn't prevent the inevitable failure, but that was at over 150k miles

'99 E39 M5
'03 Smart Roadster Coupe (For Sale)
'13 Triumph ST3R (I've gone to the visor side)
'88 VW T25 Camper
Projects: '68 Mini 1000 Mk2, Land Rover SIIA SWB and SIII LWB


#12 alpinaman

alpinaman
  • LocationHigh Peak

Posted 30 March 2011 - 10:01 PM

Let me advise you Turv....

At 10 years + you tranny oil will be black!!

If you follow my thread on the E60 tranny sump change,my oil at 6 years old was heavily contaminated,what went back in was honey coloured in comparison..

But like you say,its personal choice but let me ask you this.Would and do you apply the same principle to your engine? The oil in an auto tranny is given a similar amount of wear and tear within its components..

Its perfectly safe to change the oil in an Autbox as long as procedure is correctly applied,there is no "black art" its just an oil and filter change..

Its a no brainer IMHO..


So what do you want me to tell my specialist? that he is a complete moron? this is his day job, that he's done year in year out, re built no end of zf boxes.



Dunno what you have to tell him.. But that was my advice to you,not him...

Im no noodle myself as i have been in the motor trade for 27 years,over 20 of them being a head technician and a few of them working for Ralliart so i try and offer advice with experience to back up.

f1d45c7f-c6d0-457c-8c0c-4b476ba13e6a_zps130bcd2e-7a6a-45ae-bfb0-567f30f8ad94_zps

 

 

 

 

 

Understeer is when you hit the wall with the front of the car. Oversteer is when you hit the wall with the back of the car. Horsepower is how fast you hit the wall and torque is how far you send the wall across the field once youve hit it.


#13 Raymond

Raymond
  • LocationRotherham, South Yorkshire
  • Current Car:Saab 9.3 Turbo

Posted 30 March 2011 - 10:05 PM

IIRC BMW stated that 'lifetime' was 150K (don't know how many years)

Mine has been done twice going by my receipts and I've done it myself once.

It's still on the original box atm, a little bit sluggish shifting into 5th but after 300K it's not bad...

#14 waftingtony

waftingtony
  • LocationWigan

Posted 30 March 2011 - 10:38 PM

Mine is 170k now ..., really worried about changing the oil it as it's a massive bill if the bad oil is doing a great job already holding the 'box together lol
2001 530d Sport, Topaz Blue, alu trim & black leather, 18" Para's
Mods... Longlife stainless exhaust, Xenons, LED Angel Eyes, LED licence plate, LED door handles, De-flapped, E60 Vortex Breather

Honda S2000 Berlina Black

Previous metal:
Focus ST-2
BMW 330d Sport (204hp)
Honda Accord Type R
Pug 205 1.9 GTi

#15 fatdaddy

fatdaddy
  • LocationMalvern UK
  • Occupation:flexographic printer
  • Current Car:2001 540 sport auto touring

Posted 31 March 2011 - 12:14 AM

As I already said, I dont care what zf say. I would rather take the opportunity to have a new filter and clean oil in my box. I have read enough to have complete faith that nothing MDS will do will harm my box. OK, it may not make a difference to my 95k box now but I believe it will long term.



Sent from my X10i using Tapatalk

ey51.jpg

 


#16 King Eric

King Eric

Posted 31 March 2011 - 01:10 AM

My comment about the specialist being scared to change it was a joke-hence the tounge in cheek comment after it ;)

I was speculating as were you. You were not backing up your claims with any facts about failures of the boxes...but now we have an official ZF response to help counter your specialists belief. He could use that a sales angle himself to get customers to change their box oil now ;)

The main point here is we own £30-50k cars from new. They are now on their way out (let's not kid ourselves!) and are mostly 90/100k+ mileage some much more. So we are far exceeding the lifespan of other Marques of those years on the whole. I mean when is the last time you compared your 5 series to a 1999 Mondeo or Vectra with similar miles? 9/10 the difference would be vast in quality and condition (aside from being heavily detailed and no expense spared).

I will give you an example. I've a friend of the family with a fully loaded 750 BMW with 175k miles. He's had his box oil done at 100k and 175k. Still works fine. And the car has been into BMW every year with no expense spared on servicing and part replacement. It's even had a new engine. The dealers master technician told him it was wise to change the oil given the crap he has seen on the magnets before now...

I see your point and again thank mike for taking the time to get a 'life' expectancy from them.

I hope my change gets me another year of hassle free super comfortable motoring. If not I will buy a new car!
-------------------------
BMW E39 530 2002

#17 michael.d.s.

michael.d.s.
  • LocationQuarter, Hamilton, South Lanarkshire.

Posted 31 March 2011 - 07:43 AM

Slooby, I have contacted GM but still await a reply.

Turv, you haven't hurt my feelings don't worry, and you can tell your friend whatever you want mate it really doesn't matter,

The point I make is that your friend like myself rebuilds and repairs these units, however please feel free to show him the email I got as obviously you would agree that the manufacturer knows better than him or myself, and if you noticed that ZF actually corrected me as I quoted 93,000 miles instead I should have quoted 125,000 miles.

Oil doesn't have frictional properties, it has lubricity and non-compressibility and it certainly doesn't prevent or promote mechanical failure, it merely restores some of the performance of the unit and reduces wear on internal components.

Cheers

Michael
96 523i se auto silver, ZF and GM transmissions repaired or rebuilt.(Manual gearboxes also repaired and rebuilt)
http://t3.gstatic.co...31xhNGP612Q&t=1

#18 Russ

Russ
  • LocationSurrey

Posted 31 March 2011 - 07:50 AM

It's an interesting debate.

I had the fluid changed on my e36 some years back (which I believe is a GM tranny?) at approximately 100k miles on a 1992 car which was over 10 years old at the time. That too was supposedly lifetime fluid. I didn't have the filter changed as that would have made it an expensive job.

I've attached the write up. I was surprised at how clean the fluid was that came out.

I never had any issues following the fluid change.

Personally, I can't see how changing the fluid would do any harm - however all this chat about it is making me nervous, especially as there's nothing wrong with my 330's tranny at all at the moment.

Out of interest Michael, how do you do the fluid change without ramps? It must be difficult getting the car up off the ground and level - and also so the car can be run in drive? Or does that not need to happen for the ZF boxes?

Good to see ZF's stance on things though. Nice one.

Make it idiot proof and someone will make a better idiot

sig.jpg

Click here for my detailing page! :mrgreen:

www.bmwowner.com


#19 dan101smith

dan101smith
  • LocationHerts

Posted 31 March 2011 - 07:51 AM

Oil doesn't have frictional properties, it has lubricity and non-compressibility and it certainly doesn't prevent or promote mechanical failure, it merely restores some of the performance of the unit and reduces wear on internal components.


I'm sorry Michael, but unless you can back that up with a string of equations to prove something other than the point you've made, it's irrelevant.

#20 michael.d.s.

michael.d.s.
  • LocationQuarter, Hamilton, South Lanarkshire.

Posted 31 March 2011 - 08:00 AM

The e36 wasn't classed as lifetime fill and used atf dexron fluid and you actually changed it before it was due, but there is every chance the fluid will seem ok at the same time there is the chance it will be black and burnt, It is merely to show that "lifetime" doesn't mean forever.

Nice write up btw :)

I equally raise all corners of the car about 18 inches off the ground, its easier than a ramp because I need an assistant to operate the selector. I use long hoses and pumps.

Dan Im not biting :lol:
96 523i se auto silver, ZF and GM transmissions repaired or rebuilt.(Manual gearboxes also repaired and rebuilt)
http://t3.gstatic.co...31xhNGP612Q&t=1

#21 Russ

Russ
  • LocationSurrey

Posted 31 March 2011 - 08:09 AM

Ah I see.

I think this is also part of the problem. I had BMW dealers telling me different things at the time. Some saying yes change it at inspection2, others saying that it was lifetime and didn't need to be changed - if you then couple that with independents having their own opinions, and the forum based opinions, anyone trying to decide what to do is going to end up utterly bemused.

Write up was not one of my best tbh, as I wasn't actually doing the work myself - just making note of what the tech was chatting to me. :lol:

Can you also clarify something for me please.

The transmission fluid filter. Where is that in the grand scheme of things? In my mind, the filter would be there to prevent swarf and shit getting anywhere near bits that might be detrimentally affected by such muck. As such, draining the fluid from the sump (which should be where all the rubbish is) would mean the junk comes out with the fluid? Then the filter (which is there to capture rubbish) is also changed for a new, clean one - so more rubbish is removed when the old filter is taken out of the equation?

with say 50% clean oil put back in the sump, and a clean filter put in place, how is this supposed to be viewed as allowing crap into the delicate workings of the transmission?

I must be missing something.... :?

Apologies if this is posing questions asked previously.

Make it idiot proof and someone will make a better idiot

sig.jpg

Click here for my detailing page! :mrgreen:

www.bmwowner.com


#22 King Eric

King Eric

Posted 31 March 2011 - 08:20 AM

People pay to have a tube stuck up their bum to clean themselves out and have water thrown into this area to clean it out. Its probably not really needed but hey its something that makes you feel better and does not kill anyone. Its about the feel good factor.

Turv-no offence was meant by my post so please stop making reference to it as being some sort of witch hunt of your specialist (who nobody knows the name of/location etc!)

You are just as entitled to your opinion as us, we have listened to you however there is more 'experience' telling us it should be done. Including some dealers and techs. One dealer told me to get it done but 'not here as we will charge you the earth!'

I would be happy to take a sample from my box along with some new oil and send it to a university to have the two compared and eat my words!
-------------------------
BMW E39 530 2002

#23 King Eric

King Eric

Posted 31 March 2011 - 08:28 AM

I've contacted an oil testing lab to see if they will take a sample from mine, compare it to the new oil and explain what they find in a report which we can hold on here as a sticky. This should help explain (if of course if it shows anything) as to whether it is beneficial (which we all expect it to be) and can help us make an informed decision from another 'expert'.
-------------------------
BMW E39 530 2002

#24 steptoe

steptoe
  • Occupation:own my own bmw motorcycle repair workshop.

Posted 31 March 2011 - 08:46 AM

Tell him feck all fella, make your own mind up with your own judgement and from the wealth of knowledge that can be gleaned from many a source on here.


Don't confuse an opinion on the internet with knowledge.


A lot of independent garages are reluctant to change high mileage cars auto fluid for a very simple reason - If it goes pop a short while after, they'll get the blame and be expected to pick up the repair bill. And as you've said yourself, "it's just an oil and filter change, it's a no brainer", but the owner is usually looking for someone to blame. Which is understandable, as it was working perfectly previously....

And you can bet your bottom dollar that you'll read it on the internet from the owner about how they fecked up his gearbox, and everyone will gain this useful "knowledge" that you speak about from someone with an axe to grind. :mrgreen:

( just an opinion from someone with 24 years in the "trade", and who changed his gearbox oil at 186K miles :D )

#25 Russ

Russ
  • LocationSurrey

Posted 31 March 2011 - 08:53 AM

^^

So you're opinion is change the fluid, yeah?

I agree - 90% of stuff online is going to be bitchin' and moanin' because something went wrong, and is not a fair representation.

Make it idiot proof and someone will make a better idiot

sig.jpg

Click here for my detailing page! :mrgreen:

www.bmwowner.com


#26 waftingtony

waftingtony
  • LocationWigan

Posted 31 March 2011 - 09:30 AM

I think with some 'boxs, like my old Accord Type R for a good example, it is paramount its done. Highly strung car mated to a pretty badly designed gearbox (selector forks bend changing from 3rd to 5th in VTEC, and synchro failures common at 50k even, but normally at the 100k mark).
That gearbox required the best MTF changes if you wanted the longest life out of it, at least every 60k to be on the safe side. There is not one Accord Type R (on the owners club) that I know of that hasnt had the synchro fail at some point in its life, even the last ones made. Often joked as the "chocolate gearbox" mated to a superb car by its owners. Still, I wouldn't let the 'box put me off buying another. The car was brilliant.

Perhaps an old Auto like mine, thats driven like a vicar, may have a longer than expected 125,000 mile life. My expectations on my Auto box, considering I bought it off a sensible chap who owned for 5 years, would be around the 200-250k mark. That said, remapping soon may shorten its life. This week i'll be servicing the car, so my Good Indy will no doubt answer my question about the transmission oil. Could be wise for him to take an oil sample to see where we are... and how many iron filings are in the ATF! I'll be listening to him with 30 years knowledge and go from there.
2001 530d Sport, Topaz Blue, alu trim & black leather, 18" Para's
Mods... Longlife stainless exhaust, Xenons, LED Angel Eyes, LED licence plate, LED door handles, De-flapped, E60 Vortex Breather

Honda S2000 Berlina Black

Previous metal:
Focus ST-2
BMW 330d Sport (204hp)
Honda Accord Type R
Pug 205 1.9 GTi

#27 Jamesthefirst

Jamesthefirst
  • LocationGlasgow
  • Current Car:w204 c320cdi with added goodness!

Posted 31 March 2011 - 10:41 AM

Steptoe i speak for myself here only but i'd like to think i can differentiate between some blowhard who rants a lot of shite about stuff he/she knows not a lot about from genuine people who know their stuff. Hence the reason i told Turv to make his own conclusions after digesting all the knowledge given to him. And just to clarify, i am certain i'd trust Micheal (having had him do work for me and i don't let many people near my cars) and i'd trust the likes of Alpinaman who in his own words has been around motors for nearly as long as i've been born (well you know what i mean :wink: ). These guys don't need to come on here and explain things, they do so to help others and i reckon it's advice well heeded.

I reckon you are absolutley spot on about about the garages being scared incase they get blamed down the line, though this is part and parcel of the job they do. Maybe what they should do in this case is explain that although they believe it to be good preventative maintenance it will not stop a gearbox failing if a component goes west and that they would not be liable if such an incidence did occur.

Apart from all that, who gives a shit! :lol:

#28 michael.d.s.

michael.d.s.
  • LocationQuarter, Hamilton, South Lanarkshire.

Posted 31 March 2011 - 11:03 AM

I think people are realising that changing the fluid isn't the issue, its liability !

A woman called me a couple of weeks ago and said the AA were bringing the car to me because the starter motor has failed, then her words were "How can that be if you just serviced and MOT'd it for me a couple of months ago"

The filter within the transmission will capture large particles before they get to the pump, there are also 4 magnets in the sump pan which will look like hedgehogs by now, over time it is possible that the filter membrane can break down and allow non filtered fluid into the pump, this will cause premature failure as the worn pump will cause a drop off in pressure.
96 523i se auto silver, ZF and GM transmissions repaired or rebuilt.(Manual gearboxes also repaired and rebuilt)
http://t3.gstatic.co...31xhNGP612Q&t=1

#29 Sir Anthony Regents-Park

Sir Anthony Regents-Park
  • LocationSheffieldshire

Posted 31 March 2011 - 11:12 AM

It's a tricky one. I've seen 5HP ZF's with over 300'000 miles and still working, yet have seen them mechanically fail at 100'000.
But it's good that ZF have come up with an answer.

Classic BMW Service and repairs.


#30 hardy

hardy
  • LocationLondon
  • Occupation:Bailiff

Posted 31 March 2011 - 11:16 AM

A woman called me a couple of weeks ago and said the AA were bringing the car to me because the starter motor has failed, then her words were "How can that be if you just serviced and MOT'd it for me a couple of months ago"


:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:
When I raced a car last it was at a time when sex was safe and racing was dangerous. Now, it’s the other way roundPosted Image




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