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Caerfryn

Smoke / EGR

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Hi again

 

just a few hours ago I was on this forum praising my car.

Unfortunately since then I have been out in it and had smoke coming out from grille- strong smell like oil burning ? (Noticed it when I pulled up at roundabout)

Can smell in cabin too - but no smoke. Got off road and lifted hood - smoke seemed to be coming from rear of engine.

Left it to cool and started for return home - smell again (no smoke this time) report on screen says 'drive train problem. drive moderately and take to service garage.' (only stayed on screen about 3/4 seconds)

Got car home and took off air filter etc to expose rear of engine and cannot  see any sign of burning or leaks etc.

Car starts and sounds OK.

Any one got any ideas?

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23 minutes ago, Caerfryn said:

Hi again

 

just a few hours ago I was on this forum praising my car.

Unfortunately since then I have been out in it and had smoke coming out from grille- strong smell like oil burning ? (Noticed it when I pulled up at roundabout)

Can smell in cabin too - but no smoke. Got off road and lifted hood - smoke seemed to be coming from rear of engine.

Left it to cool and started for return home - smell again (no smoke this time) report on screen says 'drive train problem. drive moderately and take to service garage.' (only stayed on screen about 3/4 seconds)

Got car home and took off air filter etc to expose rear of engine and cannot  see any sign of burning or leaks etc.

Car starts and sounds OK.

Any one got any ideas?

I've had similar in the past.   Have a look at the rubber hose that is above the manifold.  The heat from the manifold perishes the rubber - oil, drips onto the manifold, hence smoke/smell.   Its difficult to check - you probably need a mirror to see the underside of the hose.   If it is the hose then it costs about £15 to replace. Good luck.  

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26 minutes ago, Caerfryn said:

Thanks for replies.

Why would the screen say Drivetrain problem ??

When I had a similar problem I bought an ODB2 adaptor and bought the Torque app.   The error message included insufficient fuel, but then tracking the fault through the links, I came across a site dedicated to the problem, suggesting the hole in the hose.  If this is the cause of the problem, its a cheap/easy fix, so worth looking into.

  

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Sounds like classic symptoms of EGR cooler internal leak.

 

A number of people have reported the 'Drivetrain malfunction' message coming up before the inlet manifold overheats. A leaking EGR cooler allows coolant into the exhaust gases that are entering the manifold, resulting in extreme temperatures which can cause the manifold to burn. I recommend checking your coolant level (after the engine has cooled down).

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10 minutes ago, Greenfingers said:

Sounds like classic symptoms of EGR cooler internal leak.

 

A number of people have reported the 'Drivetrain malfunction' message coming up before the inlet manifold overheats. A leaking EGR cooler allows coolant into the exhaust gases that are entering the manifold, resulting in extreme temperatures which can cause the manifold to burn. I recommend checking your coolant level (after the engine has cooled down).

 

If its EGR coolant leak, isnt that fault on the recall list ?

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Yes, I should have mentioned that. BMW will replace the EGR cooler (that includes the EGR valve) and also the damaged inlet manifold for free, if the problem was indeed caused by the EGR cooler. They asked me for a £99 inspection fee, which would not be payable if the part was found to be faulty. If your car is actually on the recall list, then they will check it for free anyway. In the first instance, I would phone BMW and ask if your car is on the list. If it isn't, then see if your coolant level is low and if it is low, then the chances are this is the cause of your problem.

Edited by Greenfingers
typo

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Hi again.

Update.

It was the screen on the car that said 'drive moderately and call service centre'

When I spoke to BMW they said not to drive.

Since a disappointing result from nearest Main Dealer  I have spoken to head Office who were brilliant.

Within a few hours they had the car transported to main dealer and supplied a courtesy car.

Top marks and my grateful thanks to head office staff.

Will now await final outcome from local dealer (Haliwell Jones Chester) - I am hoping that it turns out to be the EGR recall problem which will be repaired FOC.

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31 minutes ago, Caerfryn said:

Hi again.

Update.

It was the screen on the car that said 'drive moderately and call service centre'

When I spoke to BMW they said not to drive.

Since a disappointing result from nearest Main Dealer  I have spoken to head Office who were brilliant.

Within a few hours they had the car transported to main dealer and supplied a courtesy car.

Top marks and my grateful thanks to head office staff.

Will now await final outcome from local dealer (Haliwell Jones Chester) - I am hoping that it turns out to be the EGR recall problem which will be repaired FOC.

 

Always very nice when you do get that good service even though you had to go to Head Office. Hope nothing more serious than EGR.

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Sadly Par for the course. When I got no where when I had a "small dealer issue" going to BMW UK HQ, provided the necessary kick up the  @rse for the dealer who then extracted the digit and got me mobile again. 

 

If if you are still under warranty BMW Emergency assist is your #1 friend. They get you recovered and supply a replacement car of generally equal or better status.

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Update.

Local BMW dealer phoned yesterday to say  EGR/Cooler is faulty - so hopefully nothing more.

They said that it would take two to four weeks to get the parts ??

I have a nice little Renault Capture courtesy car from Enterprise so not too bothered about time although I find it a bit odd that they have to wait so long for a known recall part ??

A small plus is any mileage this month will go on courtesy car.

Thanks to all for interest and advice.

Edited by Caerfryn

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Pleased for you that they are dealing with it promptly and it should be a no cost fix. The EGR cooler will include a new EGR valve, which is a good thing to have done anyway.

 

If I was in your shoes, I would be asking for confirmation of what they are doing with the inlet manifold. Since you have had the smoke symptom already, the coolant has certainly contaminated the carbon deposits in the manifold, creating a fire hazard. I believe the minimum they must do is walnut blast the manifold to get rid of the deposits (which is also a very good thing, since the build up of crap in there will be hampering your performance and economy). However, if some of the stuff caught fire, that may have damaged the manifold and possibly even burnt holes in it, which would necessitate that being replaced too. Bet your glad it's covered by the recall!

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Walnut blasting is only done on the inlet ports in the head once the manifold is removed. The manifold is then cleaned in a parts washer if it is going to be cleaned. Coolant isn't flammable so not sure how this could be a fire hazard?

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4 minutes ago, Matthew Ashton said:

Walnut blasting is only done on the inlet ports in the head once the manifold is removed. The manifold is then cleaned in a parts washer if it is going to be cleaned. Coolant isn't flammable so not sure how this could be a fire hazard?

 

From what I've read (and experienced) carbon/soot build up in the inlet manifold is a constant problem when exhaust gases are recycled, because the reduction in cross sectional area obviously restricts the ideal flow of air and fuel mixture.

 

The big deal about EGR coolers failing and the reason for the recall program is because glycol getting into the manifold sticks to the carbon, causing a build up of 'clumps', which get hotter than the usual dry lining of soot causing hot spots which melt holes in the manifold or even catch fire. The mechanism has been demonstrated recently in Korea if you want to check.

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The recall is causing a shortage of parts.  I was quoted as having to wait until Feb for mine to be fixed/replaced.  However the loaner cars are not ideal for me as I need the boot space so I have declined and I am waiting for all of it to settle down a little.   I had this part replaced in 2017 anyway so I am sure it will be fine for 6 months.

 

Bmw I believe have tried to steady the flow of work by declaring a section of cars for recall that need doing at a time.    In reality most of the cars in the F** range will probably need doing.

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50 minutes ago, Greenfingers said:

 

From what I've read (and experienced) carbon/soot build up in the inlet manifold is a constant problem when exhaust gases are recycled, because the reduction in cross sectional area obviously restricts the ideal flow of air and fuel mixture.

 

This I understand having removed the manifold from my previous F11 yo clean it. There was no dry lining of soot, it was a layer of mushy carbon but not a dramatic build up after 52000 miles. (I posted pictures in a previous thread)

 

50 minutes ago, Greenfingers said:

 

The big deal about EGR coolers failing and the reason for the recall program is because glycol getting into the manifold sticks to the carbon, causing a build up of 'clumps', which get hotter than the usual dry lining of soot causing hot spots which melt holes in the manifold or even catch fire. The mechanism has been demonstrated recently in Korea if you want to check.

 

Had not heard of this on BMWs.

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Here is a picture of the EGR valve on my old E61 before I cleaned it. I went on to do the inlet manifold as well, which was also in a shocking state. The deposits near the cylinder head were gooey, as described by Matthew, but the area where the exhaust gases enter the manifold was lined with hard, dry soot, similar to the stuff in the EGR valve.

 

DSCF7168.jpg.875bcb0f72a064b6eeb08cf5aec6e6a4.jpg

 

That was an M57 engine after 123K miles, so an extreme example, but this is what recycled exhaust gases can do to diesel engines.

 

You can probably imagine how doing this job improved the performance!

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Hi again

 

I am intending to ask dealers if they intend to check the inlet manifold and clean or replace it as I too have read that when you get smoke (quite a lot of it too) it is likely due to glycol combustion in the manifold which causes damage to the manifold. (as noted by greenfingers)

My car is high mileage so any legitimate new parts can only be an advantage.

I don't know if there is a realistic comparison but when I had my Xtype EGR cleaning was required twice in 30,000 miles. This usually increased mpg  by about 10mpg. and instantly cured black exhaust smoke.

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2 hours ago, Caerfryn said:

Hi again

 

I am intending to ask dealers if they intend to check the inlet manifold and clean or replace it as I too have read that when you get smoke (quite a lot of it too) it is likely due to glycol combustion in the manifold which causes damage to the manifold. (as noted by greenfingers)

My car is high mileage so any legitimate new parts can only be an advantage.

I don't know if there is a realistic comparison but when I had my Xtype EGR cleaning was required twice in 30,000 miles. This usually increased mpg  by about 10mpg. and instantly cured black exhaust smoke.

 

Mine is also high mileage, that's a good idea to ask them to check the manifold mine is booked for march 5th.

 

 

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