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M635uk

Help with "Alpina" B10 cam install requested

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Morning all

 

Need some advice on running issues I have with my B35 535 following upgrade to "alpina" B10 spec

Recently carried out the following  - piston change to "piano" pistons from e28 m535 to boost compression

Installed "alpina B10" spec cam shaft from a reputable uk supplier together with suitable ecu chip.  Full head rebuild, all new gaskets, head skim 10 thou (which should have minuscule effect on cam timing)

Set clearances to 10 thou.

 

Car will start but runs like an absolute dog, will not idle, will not rev, spitting and popping in the intake manifold.  It is undriveable.  Feels like it is a timing issue.

 

So I have been through most things ignition wise - all OK, I have spark on all six cylinders, ignition timing can't be 180 deg out on this engine, plugs show up as sooty, seems to be over fuelling.  Fuel supply is fine though.  CTS is fine and correctly wired.  Car was running fine'ish before upgrade (although it did have a bent valve when stripped down).

 

Spoke to the supplier to get the cam specs as these did not come with the cam,  it should fit fine via the "horizontal bolt method at TDC", but was told that they don't have the actual specs for the cam!   It's a copy of a cam...  I paid over £400 for a cam that has no specs!  So not happy.

 

So I really need to know the clearances and centreline degrees (I am assuming 110 deg here but may be wrong of course) for a real Alpina B10 cam - anyone help here?

Having checked current fitting (its not one tooth out by the way) with a  degree wheel and DTI both inlet and exhaust lift peaks at 116 deg.    This seems a bit too far out for me if the true peak should occur at 110 deg.  Could this be my issue?  The cam is retarded and opening the valves later than expected, will this lead to very rough running, spitting etc?

 

I have checked compression,n 178-168psi across the 6 cylinders so no problem here.

 

I plan to slot the camshaft sprocket to make it adjustable so I can bring the cam inline with what I believe centreline should be (110 deg) and then try again.

Before I do this any further advice would be appreciated, plus I course I would like to know the true centreline for an actual B10 cam.   Doesn't seem to be much on the web re actual specs for Alpina cams.

 

I'll update on progress here anyway but fire away with any suggestions please.

 

Many Thanks

 

Ian

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

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And no air leaks, loose earths or unplugged sensor like afm?

 

Ie check the daft things first even if you think you have?

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1 hour ago, duncan-uk said:

An unplugged afm for instance will run but like crap. So i'd be looking at unseated connectors and the like.

 

Hi, ran it with the afm connected and it was very poor, disconnected it and it actually allowed the thing to idle (all be it at 1800rpm) but spitting and popping in the inlet manifold, but yes best to check each connector and trace back to the ecu plug.  also ran the with the normal chip and it behaved similarly to the uprated one.   The uprated chip actually runs it better which is good.

Edited by M635uk
Speeling/grammar

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39 minutes ago, dan101smith said:

You bought the cam from Fritz Bitz, I assume?

Hi

Best to not assume here please, I have actually had very good service from the supplier for all other stuff I have had from them.  I just want a good running car.  Its just not having the cam specs that I find disappointing.  Thanks

Ian

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16 hours ago, sharkfan said:

Have you double checked the spark plug leads are correct from the distributor to the plugs? 

 

Hi Sharkfan, wil do, I am hoping it is something daft...

Got a TDC stop coming today so will check true TDC, next week I will slot the camshaft sprocket 6 deg each way so I can adjust the cam once I know the true centreline for that too!

Also had a thought that 3 of the 6 injectors may not be firing (they are fired in 2 batches according to the motronic diagram.) so I will check continuity and grounding of the injectors too.

Cheers for now

 

Ian

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Are you sure that the cam is timed correctly? When no 1 is at top dead centre no 6 should be on the overlap. It is possible to have the cam timing  180 degrees out. Remove the cam cover to check that the top dead centre mark on the pulley is lined up. No 1 cylinder valves will be closed. Check No 6 and you should see that the valves are on the overlap. That is turning the engine one way or the other will open or close the valves, sometimes called "rocking" which describes the motion of one to the inlet and exhaust valves.

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Which cam is it supposed to be a 268/268? As that was used on a few of the M30 engines like e28 and early e34. then when they brought out the katalyser spec

 

In an ideal world, you should buy a vernier pulley get the cam spec and get the cam dialled in.  The guy who did my schrick on my E30 did it buy i think setting TDC on a venier guage and measuring the valve lift at TDC which schirck state, which he said was more accurate than doing with a degree wheel.  If yours is retarded then it won't run well and it doesn't take alot of cam timing difference to make a huge difference in how the engine runs  

 

 

 

 

 

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9 hours ago, Bumbaclut said:

Which cam is it supposed to be a 268/268? As that was used on a few of the M30 engines like e28 and early e34. then when they brought out the katalyser spec

 

In an ideal world, you should buy a vernier pulley get the cam spec and get the cam dialled in.  The guy who did my schrick on my E30 did it buy i think setting TDC on a venier guage and measuring the valve lift at TDC which schirck state, which he said was more accurate than doing with a degree wheel.  If yours is retarded then it won't run well and it doesn't take alot of cam timing difference to make a huge difference in how the engine runs  

 

 

 

 

 

Hi, yes that is the next plan.  I will remove camshaft sprocket and get it slotted to allow fine adjustment.   I will then degree the cam to 110 deg centreline (which I believe is the spec for the cam but not yet confirmed).  Its currently fixed at 116 deg centreline.   So a shift of 6 degree may correct the poor running.   Will know by end of week.  I will also fully test the air flow meter which could also be the culprit.

Thanks

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On ‎7‎/‎29‎/‎2018 at 5:52 PM, ///M5 said:

Are you sure that the cam is timed correctly? When no 1 is at top dead centre no 6 should be on the overlap. It is possible to have the cam timing  180 degrees out. Remove the cam cover to check that the top dead centre mark on the pulley is lined up. No 1 cylinder valves will be closed. Check No 6 and you should see that the valves are on the overlap. That is turning the engine one way or the other will open or close the valves, sometimes called "rocking" which describes the motion of one to the inlet and exhaust valves.

Cant be 180 degress out on this engine as the rotor arm and camshaft sprocket are pegged.

Just slotted my sprocket so will fit this at the weekend and dial the cam in precisely.   Should give me 9 deg adjustment each way,

Also not happy with my afm when testing it so I have replacement on the way.

Cheers for now.

754983823_image(002).thumb.jpeg.dc3f1f04fd70f466782b77ff1b40c321.jpeg

Edited by M635uk
spelling

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Nice work, that will get you in the right ball park i'm sure as 9 degrees adjustment is a massive amount in cam timing! 

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You can open up the afm and shift the wiping surface a bit and refresh them. They tend to wear around the idle and light throttle positions. 

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its the air temp sensor within the AFM that get covered in dirt fails, which gives strange or lean running as its not reading the correct temps, same with failing MAFs.  

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21 hours ago, Bumbaclut said:

its the air temp sensor within the AFM that get covered in dirt fails, which gives strange or lean running as its not reading the correct temps, same with failing MAFs.  

I will check this too. 

I reset the afm to swipe in a different  area but the afm has failed completely now, so will retest when the "spare" one comes, plus i have purchased a new afm circuit board from china but that may take some weeks to come. 

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On 8 August 2018 at 8:49 PM, Bumbaclut said:

China?! id not hold much hope!

 

Indeed, but better than a non functioning one.  Afm for a 535 seem quite rare and they are of course getting old now.  Bosch discontinued the manufacture of new ones some time ago.

 

Anyway i have made some progress.   The coolant temp sensore connections werent that great so repaired those, fitted as spare  afm and fired her up.  Seemed to run better for about 10 seconds then it shut down.  Seems to be massively over fuelling, spark plugs very wet, i could shake fuel out of them!   So the diagnosis continues.

 

i have checked continuity on all signals into the ecu and they check out fine.

tested fuel rail pressure - around 3 bar so no problem their.  Fpr not leaking.   So back to the afm which i will test further.

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37 minutes ago, boiliebasher said:

Was the engine running ok before the rebuild?! 

Hi, yes it was apart from a ticking noise and low power.

Turned out to be a bent valve...which has been corrected.

 

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So here is the latest diagnosis.

 

Here is what I have done to the engine

Head rebuild, 10 thou skim

Alpina B10 camshaft dialled in to 110 deg centreline using slotted camshaft sprocket

New standard headgasket

Valve clearance's set to 10 thou.  May go for 12 thou but supplier was unable to give me any specs for the cam.

Alpina B10 ecu chip.

M535 piano pistons to bump compression to about 9.5:1

Car was running fine before upgrade except for ticking noise and lowish power - turned out to be a bent valve.

 

Video attached showing the engine running and hunting like crazy between 1500 and 2000 rpm.

Not shown in the video but when I disconnect the idle control valve it stays the same i.e. still hunting.

It seems to be fluctuating around the point where the motronic cuts off fuel on overrun, then refuels as the rpm drops below this?

Will not idle, if it does calm down then it is spitting and popping in the exhaust.

If airflow meter connector is removed it will reduce rpm and then die.

Running very rich with black sooty plugs when shut down and inspected following end of video.

Engine will rev when the throttle is blipped

Compression test shows good at around 170psi per cylinder.

BUT it remains completely undriveable.

 

Comparing the cam to the original BMW one, the hole for the rotor arm is in the correct place, you cant fit the cam plate the wrong way round and the camshaft sprocket, although slotted, lines up nicely with the original pin location (which of course has been removed to allow the cam to be dialled in.  The ignition system is not 180 deg out.

 

This is driving me mad.  I am at a loss on what to check further now as the car is running, but the fuelling and possibly the ignition timing seems way off.

 

I will make further contact with the supplier for advice but may now look to remove the cam and chip and go back to the standard one.  Which is a big job.

 

Link to youtube video showing the hunting 

 

 

 

Edited by M635uk
link to youtube video

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Hi

I can understand your frustration. If you increase the rpm to a higher level say 4000 will it run at those revs?. Is it that it will run at a steady high rpm but not idle?

 

  

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8 minutes ago, ///M5 said:

Hi

I can understand your frustration. If you increase the rpm to a higher level say 4000 will it run at those revs?. Is it that it will run at a steady high rpm but not idle?

 

  

Hi yes it will run at say 4000rpm by holding the throttle, but difficult to hold a steady rpm at that level and it doesn't seem happy at all.

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