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37 minutes ago, oldjohnny said:

Totally agree with the freedom of movement Mike but how do you control the financial liabilities involved in this as it's all one way traffic to the UK at present. 

 

One way traffic? How? There are over 1m UK nationals living in the EU. Most immigration to the UK is from outside the EU anyway afaiK. 

 

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4 hours ago, SuperDave said:

https://fullfact.org/immigration/eu-migration-and-uk/

 

It was overall about 50:50 EU to non-EU until the Brexit vote BUT the reality is that everyone's actual experience will be totally different because of where they live and whats happening locally around them. 

 

Anyway, back on topic.... 

 

 

Not sure where you are seeing 50:50 as the document you linked shows, and states, "Estimated non-EU net migration, meanwhile, is 205,000 a year—the highest level recorded since 2011. It has been almost consistently higher than EU migration for decades.".

Not sure if Jake meant eastern Europe to be non EU in fairness, though that still wouldnt answer my question about why ordinary folk voted leave. 

 

Back on topic, sure..

 

 

 

 

 

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In the year before the referendum, net EU migration was estimated at 189,000

Estimated non-EU net migration, meanwhile, is 205,000 a year

 

That was my rough 50:50 but you're right non-EU migration much higher prior to that. 

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The 1 million uk residents living in the EU quoted earlier are either working or retired and rest assured that none are living on cash from social securities or relying on social housing from any of those countries.  When I stated that it was one way traffic I meant that we are the 'soft touch' of Europe in so much as anyone who can get here, from Europe or not, will be taken under the wing of our system right away.  The average man in the street may not understand the high level discussions re Brexit but simple figures will not have eluded them.  God only (it would seem) knows the immigration figures for the past five or six years but from 2001-2011, four million immigrants arrived in the UK, and just short of 470,000 were allocated social housing.  The impact stemming from this on those waiting for years to be housed is surely obvious, hence just one of the  reasons for such a large leave vote.  I would dearly love to see free movement staying as is, but the sheer financial stress on our finances cannot continue on this scale without regulation of some description which we cannot apply under current EU rules. 

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  • The ONS statics from outside the EU do not shown students studying.  There have been some years where students are just under 50%. 
  • The bulk of EU immigration from 2004 have been for unskilled and semi-skilled.  This caused wages for UK workers to fall in those sectors, because prices were being undercut hence an undesirable amount of competition.  Tony Blair and Ed Miliband both have apologised for this
  • According to the ONS house prices have increased by 20% in England because of immigration.
  • Green belt land is now being built on, because there is no more land to build property - especially in London.
  • Immigration outside of the EU tend to be for skilled or higher, and has a point system.  The NHS is now starting to suffer because of the Tier point system – as they can’t recruit the numbers of workers from within that Tier because they have reached the quota.

I’ve always sat on the fence with immigration in the above context, because it’s not why I voted to leave (and personally the word immigration has a native meaning for me and some other people I know.  The Government and public should use a different or a new word so we can talk about immigration without causing any offense to anyone). I could make an argument for:  one of the reasons I voted to leave for trade with the rest of the world especially common wealth, this builds their infrastructure, we don’t steal their doctors etc, and we invest in UK workers to do skilled and highly skilled labour. 

 

Also why are we rerunning the referendum arguments this has been covered in 2 different threads since 2016

Edited by nealpina

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Yes something along those lines. 

 

Unfortunately some will say that expat/expatriate is controversial because of ethnocentrism, because British emigrants have used this word for years. As they are better than immigrants from underdeveloped or developing countries.  Therefore we do need a word which has not been used with a lesser or a higher meaning.  Politicians and the media need to debate this subject with genuine facts from all sides instead of getting beaten down

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The Daily Express on May's 12 point plan:

''On the subject of immigration,  the plan is for a 'mobility framework so that UK and EU citizens can continue to travel to each other’s territories, and apply for study and work'.

Contributions to the EU’s financial coffers will end with the UK’s membership, but that doesn’t mean Britain will not be sending any money to Brussels after Brexit.

While not wanting to be in the or a customs union with the EU, Mrs May has decided upon a “Facilitated customs Arrangement” to remove the need for customs checks and controls between the UK and EU.

Mrs May has pledged to maintain a “common rulebook” for food, farm, and industrial goods, which would mean the UK would align with EU regulation as well as commit to an “ongoing harmonisation” of the bloc’s rules''

 

I read that as free movement stays, we continue to pay Brussels, we are de facto still in the customs union, and we continue to accept the laws that the EU lays down. So the deal is pretty much the same as being a member of the EU  but with one big difference - we will no longer be part of the decision making.  

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28 minutes ago, whiskychaser said:

"So the deal is pretty much the same as being a member of the EU  but with one big difference - we will no longer be part of the decision making".

 

No wonder that Boris and his chums are a bit miffed then! And Juncker and Tusk must be laughing their wotsits off at our disarray. What a mess...

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Clearly the presumption was the populous would vote remain and thus there is no brexit plan. 

 

The eu despite their posturing wish us to remain but must close ranks to save face..

 

The uk is now down a path from which we can't go back nor go forward. 

 

What at a shambles <_<

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Westminster is very good at shambles ... It's the reason the country is in such a mess ;)

 To look back at events over the last 80 years would leave future generations thinking fools or more likely traitors :mellow:

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27 minutes ago, duncan-uk said:

Clearly the presumption was the populous would vote remain and thus there is no brexit plan. 

 

The eu despite their posturing wish us to remain but must close ranks to save face..

 

The uk is now down a path from which we can't go back nor go forward. 

 

What at a shambles <_<

A concise and accurate assessment. If the 12 point plan is the best we can hope for, I shudder to think what we will actually end up with.  Nobody seems to be getting what they wanted and thought they were voting for. 

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Arguable. A binary question means its open to interpretation. If the UK leaves the EU the referendum result has been delivered.  To claim "nobody seems to be getting what they wanted" is presumptious.

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On 9 July 2018 at 6:14 PM, bmwmike said:

Immigration? I don't think people are that stupid.  Trade agreements? I don't think most people are that intelligent. 

 

 

 

Just tragically misinformed. Too many forreners innit.

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8 hours ago, whiskychaser said:

A concise and accurate assessment. If the 12 point plan is the best we can hope for, I shudder to think what we will actually end up with.  Nobody seems to be getting what they wanted and thought they were voting for. 

But this is what they voted for. If they didn’t realise it was what they were voting for then that’s their issue - either they believed some obvious lies or they simply didn’t think things through enough to realise that the best possible outcome wasn’t necessarily the most likely outcome. I have no time for leave voters claiming they didn’t vote for this - they might as well just say “I didn’t understand the risks but voted anyway”.

 

It will be pretty frustrating if at the end of all this, after we’ve left the EU, the leave voters are still whinging because their unrealistic expectations haven’t been met.

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10 minutes ago, Spandex said:

But this is what they voted for. If they didn’t realise it was what they were voting for then that’s their issue - either they believed some obvious lies or they simply didn’t think things through enough to realise that the best possible outcome wasn’t necessarily the most likely outcome. I have no time for leave voters claiming they didn’t vote for this - they might as well just say “I didn’t understand the risks but voted anyway”.

 

It will be pretty frustrating if at the end of all this, after we’ve left the EU, the leave voters are still whinging because their unrealistic expectations haven’t been met.

 

100%.

 

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9 hours ago, bmwmike said:

Arguable. A binary question means its open to interpretation. If the UK leaves the EU the referendum result has been delivered.  To claim "nobody seems to be getting what they wanted" is presumptious.

Remainers didn't want it anyway and the resignations of Davis and Johnson would seem to indicate that those strongly in favour are not happy with the planned way forward either. Of course, I could be wrong.  The comment is hardly presumptuous when it includes the word 'seems' :) 

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Fair comment :)

 

My observation of the latest developments is that nobody seems happy with the proposals. Presumptious perhaps :) but at least we had 48% happy before.. or if not exactly happy, satisfactory enough to remain with the status quo.

 

 

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48.11% to be pedantic ;)

 

And thats 99.92% valid votes of 72.22% of eligible voters so it really isn't cut and dried.

 

I wonder what result a mandatory turn out would have given and how many people would vote differently in light of where we are?

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I think also its too greater job for one party and that brexit should have been a cross party committee to deal with that alone leaving the incumbent government to deal with running the country on the day to day level.

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13 minutes ago, duncan-uk said:

I think also its too greater job for one party and that brexit should have been a cross party committee to deal with that alone leaving the incumbent government to deal with running the country on the day to day level.

 

That's a very good point - and one which I sort of agree with.  Problem is all the different agendas.  They can't agree on the colour of shite at the moment - any of them.  Would this have made it even less likely that a position could have been agreed?

 

I'll be flamed for this no doubt, but actually, now that the citizens of this country can see some of the difficulties, I feel it would not be unreasonable to halt the Brexit process and hold another referendum.  I would normally NEVER advocate this, but I think people are now more likely to be better informed.

 

If the result is the same, then MAYBE just leaving without a deal might just, in the long term, be the way to go.  Negotiate once we are out, starting from position zero.  No agenda to keep us in with threats, and the other 27 countries will have had time to weigh up the impact of all this.

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