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Blackman

ULEZ Expansion Plans for 2021

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Full info on ULEZ can be found here > https://tfl.gov.uk/modes/driving/ultra-low-emission-zone

 

I'm not sure why this is not already being discussed here, because essentially if you live in London, then you can forget about driving your E34/5 series or whatever BMW you have from 80/90's and early 2000's, unless you are willing to pay £12.50/day for driving the car in the zone.

 

Surely this absolutely ridiculous and I can't believe these plans are actually going ahead? If this applied just to central London (starting from April 2019), then I wouldn't be bothered, because I never drive there myself due to the silly levels of traffic, so if going to central London, then I normally just use tube, but extending the zone all the way to North/South Circular roads (from October 2021) means I will no longer be able to drive my E34 without having to pay or let alone any other BMW from the same era...

 

All amazing, great cars, which are still perfectly usable today, are going to be subject to this charge, so I'll have no choice but to buy some newish automatic, turbo-crap, because I can't imagine myself paying £12.50/day just to drive around London.

 

There must be a petition going on somewhere against this non-sense? I have to sell my pride and joy, which I had no intention of doing so, and basically there will be no point of buying any pre 2005 car, because very few of them will be Euro 4 (petrol) and Euro 6 (diesel) emission standards compliant? What a load of bollocks...

 

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49 minutes ago, Chu346 said:

Convert to LPG

 

Serious? And even if I did, it's not as simple as sticking an LPG kit on the car and off you go. The TFL's database uses manufacturer supplied data to establish certain vehicle's emissions and then tells you, if you have to pay the charge or not.

 

So even if I was to put an LPG on my E34, which would frankly be a joke to do it anyway, I'm assuming the car would have to go through various checks to determine the CURRENT emission figures and only then be given an exemption. I doubt there are such facilities in place as of today and I don't think this will be a popular option anyway - most people will simply flock to newer cars.

 

And those of you outside of London who think this won't affect you, think again.....Give it a few years and such zones will become a common place in all major cities in the UK.

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I followed the link and it shows as an option. 

 

LPG hardly produces any emissions so fitting shouldn’t be too difficult. 

 

I think it’s a good option 

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15 minutes ago, Blackman said:

And those of you outside of London who think this won't affect you, think again.....Give it a few years and such zones will become a common place in all major cities in the UK.

I dont miss breathing in lungfulls of pollution laden air since stopping working in london. 

It is going to cause massive upheaval and no doubt will spread, to other major cities but if it can deliver a decent improvement in air quality then its worth it imho. 

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4 hours ago, SuperDave said:

I dont miss breathing in lungfulls of pollution laden air since stopping working in london. 

It is going to cause massive upheaval and no doubt will spread, to other major cities but if it can deliver a decent improvement in air quality then its worth it imho. 

 

I will need to do a bit more research and dig up some factual numbers, but I've read that most of the transport pollution in London doesn't actually come from light vehicles, but the majority is from HGVs, buses and coaches.

 

TFL can regulate those forms of transport as much as they like, but the fact that I'll have to pay 12 quid every time I want to drive my car even on the outskirts of London is non-sense.

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Hi,

 

Like it or not, the automotive industry is now moving at a faster pace to make the switch from fossil fueled cars to most likely electric over the next 5,10, 15+ years. Some say electric isn't viable and that might well be the case, but currently that's what it seems to be moving towards. 

 

There's been suggestions to roll this kind of extra charge to drive into plenty of other city and large town centres as well, just seems that London is the first to actually put forward a time frame and more details. When they all kick in (certainly for the announcement stage) a lot more people are going to be affected. 

 

Eventually, only those with deep pockets will run a fossil fueled car and it's likely to be petrol driven but from the upper quality brands, Porsches, Supercars, Rolls' and such like where owners are much more likely to have those deep pockets. The very best Performance variants from the likes of BMW, Merc, Audi etc will likely have significant numbers of owners willing to pay the premium. Normal petrol powered cars won't be chosen, Diesel's will most likely have been scrapped etc by then. Of course, enthusiasts who decide to keep their 'interesting' or 'very very well maintained' petrol or Diesel will still be able to, it's just it's going to cost a big amount to do so and to drive around. 

 

For fossil fueled cars, expect fuel at the pump prices, insurance, VED, parts and maintenance items, MOT costs all have extra taxes levied on them to further persuade owners to give them up and go for the next gen of cars. 

 

Blackman - I do agree that it's annoying and does really miff enthusiasts like us bigtime, however, in order to clean up the air, a vast proportion of Fossil fueled vehicles will need to go - including commercial and public transport. I was in Central London a few days ago and I saw the first UPS van that was I presume electric powered as it made very little sound. A lot of those private cars, do very short journeys meaning the engine hasn't warmed up properly and thus, kick out a lot more pollution than initially thought in comparison to public transport where perhaps 97% or more of the time the engine is operating at optimum temperature and thus, not kicking out as much pollution proportionally. 

 

Lastly, I think there's many interesting cars from BMW and many others that perhaps won't have a vast increase in value and selling prices that many current owners and short term into the future potential owners are thinking will be the case....

 

Cheers, Dennis!

 

 

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Dennis, you absolutely have a point in terms the automotive industry slowly moving towards the electric/hybrid side of things, but these are seriously drastic measures, which will affect millions of Londoners in literally 3 years time.

 

This is basically the government forcing newer cars down our throats without us having much choice of doing anything else.....If there was a realistic "additional tax" for driving less efficient cars, then I would possibly pay an X amount of money per year to keep my old BMW, but 12 quid a day is essentially saying "buy a newer car or take a bus/cycle/walk".

 

Simply look out of your window and tell how many cars do you see that will comply with ULEZ standards from 2021? From where I'm sitting at least 50% of the cars will have to go, because while they might be perfectly usable cars today, but because of these idiotic regulations, people would have to sell/scrap them as paying the daily charge won't be a viable option.

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Hi 

 

Blackman, I agree with you for the most part! My response is that what would the alternative be? or what could it be? Many countries around the world have signed up to reduce harmful emissions so each country has to implement that throughout their population, it's not 'just' the UK having to do potentially drastic things. For some reason, back in India where my heritage is, they've suggested they'll have ALL the diesel and petrol and harmful emission vehicles off the road by 2030, just 11 years or so's time. With such old infrastructure, red tape, and in comparison to the UK a much much larger geographic size, I don't think it'll be possible. That said, economies like India are much, much more hungry and eager for change and economic activity and growth is massive in comparison to the UK, so the optimistic side of me thinks they'll at least make good progress by 2030. 

 

The charges to drive into city and larger town centres will most likely take effect and many many people will feel 'pushed' to change and hence frustration on your part as well as mine and potentially millions of others. It could have been worse and they 'blanket ban' all fossil fuels entire and no one has a say. This way, they make it 'seem' as though you have a choice! Pay the charge if you want to drive your fossil fueled car into those zones. It means the government can say 'you have the choice' and make out that it's drivers who come in are the 'bad guys'. You can still use your car in non chargeable zones so I think many will opt for a small city electric car for their daily commutes if they work in such a zone and leave the fossil fueled car at home to use in non chargeable zones as they do now. The other kicker is of course the above, they'll increase all the charges slowly to make more and more drivers get rid of their fossil fueled cars leaving only the more enthusiast market to keep 'old' cars on the road for fun, albeit a very expensive way to have fun! - That's your 'additonal tax' you mention that you are willing to pay. 

 

Someone needs to invent a gizmo that attaches to the exhaust of fossil fueled cars and collects all the harmful stuff so it can be removed and cleaned out/replaced every month !

 

Cheers, Dennis!

 

 

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1 hour ago, DennisCooper said:

Someone needs to invent a gizmo that attaches to the exhaust of fossil fueled cars and collects all the harmful stuff so it can be removed and cleaned out/replaced every month !

Something like a dpf?

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I wonder what other taxes the government will put up when they stop getting tax from petrol and diesel. Lets face it we pay 75 to 80% tax on fuel now.

I also this this shows how out of touch governments are with the "average man". I would guess the reason most people don't own an Euro6 car (Sept 2015 onwards) is because they can't afford one. In the government policy they are only giving those who live inside the north circular a couple of years to replace their cars.

When the LEZ was changed my 2003 VW transporter was worth £4500 (a bloke from Wales bought it) A Euro 6 replacement £15k plus. I now don't own a van!

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Dennis, the alternative would be, like a suggested, some form of realistic additional annual tax for driving less efficient vehicles. This would gently push a significant amount of people to newer cars, but people like you and me would still get the opportunity to drive whatever we want, but pay slightly more for the privilege.

 

The above example would give us a reasonable choice to "upgrade" or just a pay a bit more. However, asking to pay essentially the congestion charge for driving in the inner/outer parts of London is absurd. No doubt, one day we will all be driving electric vehicles or possibly be driven around in autonomous cars, but I just don't see the ULEZ expanding to North/South Circular roads so rapidly, within just 3 years time.

 

I won't be surprised if next year this expansion date will be postponed, because like I said, we are talking about hundreds of thousands of cars having to go away from London.

 

 

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Hi,

 

POF - That could be an option for some, but I think for many it won't be - family, businesses and jobs being the main reasons. Also, don't forget, more and more other cities and larger towns will begin to implement the same things - Birmingham, Leeds, Southampton, Nottingham and Derby are also looking to crreate ULEZ's over the next 3 years. I'd hazard Manchester, Leicester/Coventry areas, Reading, Swindon won't be too far behind. Between all these places, that's a big proportion of the population.

 

Blackman - I'd say perhaps 'tacking' it onto VED could be a way forward for those in ULEZ's and who have older more polluting vehicles. Issue there is that many people might not use their cars for commuting so they'll feel penalized for having such a car they never or hardly ever take into the ULEZ. So the current proposal, i.e Pay on Demand seems to be the fairest way - those who want/wish to go in can and pay, those who don't wish/want to go in don't pay extra. Given from my earlier post, that expenses for running a fossil fueled car are likely to be gently ramped up over the years, that'll be the 'gentle push' you are thinking of. 

 

Stressed - As an example, have you seen the amount of VED paid by drivers in Southern Ireland ? I think that's a tax which could be ramped up to similar'ish levels, so it'd be well north of £1000 per yer to paid the 'VED/Tax' for even the smaller runabout type cars and perhaps £1500 for a mid to large size family saloon/hatchback. Car's like M's and AMG's already pay around 2000 to 2500 Euro's or therabouts currently over there for instance. I think there'll be increases in tax percentages for fossil fuel cars (and vans/trucks etc) for parts and servicing materials and it'd be very easy for the government to hike up MOT costs, so even with discounts it'll be £250 + per year to pay. Fuel costs are rising again, so in another 3-5 and then 7-10 years I'd suggest with a few percentage points increase in the tax on petrol/diesel, that'll ramp up to perhaps an average of £1.50-1.65 per litre? and then £1.75/£1.80 per litre of the higher grades of each?!

 

My VED reminder has just come in for my 2003 E39 530d and it's £315 for the year. I think I just vaguely remember it being around the £185 level back in perhaps 2006'ish? so that's what a 65% increase in 12 years. 

 

OR, maybe once Brexit goes through and there's multiple sources of new sectors of the economy which the UK finds for itself that are ultra profitable and lucrative, that the government will keep prices for everything as they are now or, even subsidize petrol and diesel !  ..  

 

Cheers, Dennis!

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2 hours ago, Paddy O'Furniture said:

Yet another reason not to live in or near London. Would moving house be a viable option? 

 

That would be a bit extreme, moving house because you can no longer keep a car that you want....And that's not the point anyway.

 

Even if I lived outside of the zone, the area that covers it is so large that if I wanted to drive anywhere remotely close to inner parts of London, I'd have to pay.

 

Remember, we are not talking about the current congestion charging zone in Central London, which is pretty small, and it makes sense to have it, as the area is very busy......But the planned expanded zone for 2021 covers a massive area in comparison.

 

If you can still get an oldish petrol car from 2005/2006, which would conform with Euro 4 emissions standards, but you can forget about diesels, because the minimum requirement is Euro 6 (regulation started in Sep 2015). Most of the diesels on the road that comply with that are less than 3 years old as of today.

 

I was out this afternoon and checked a random reg of an LCI E90 320d, which was a 2010 model, and it came up as non-compliant. Can you believe that? A car, only 8 years old, which would a lot of people consider as pretty new, will basically be useless in 3 years time for London....What about all the VAG group cars? Every John and Barry drives a diesel Golf or an A3?

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I view the whole ULEZ thing with amusement. It's quite laughable but it would seem an opportune moment to sell up and move somewhere else anyway. It'll only get worse. 

 

Thankfully, I live in a city surrounded by stunning countryside and have a mayor who isn't an idiot. 

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45 minutes ago, Sir Anthony Regents-Park said:

I view the whole ULEZ thing with amusement. It's quite laughable but it would seem an opportune moment to sell up and move somewhere else anyway. It'll only get worse. 

 

Thankfully, I live in a city surrounded by stunning countryside and have a mayor who isn't an idiot. 

 

There's nothing wrong with ULEZ, if you look at cars as metal boxes on wheels to get you from A to B, but if you like cars and enjoy driving different cars from different times, regardless of their age, then ULEZ is a disaster.

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I have no idea what your chatting? ULEZ? What does that stand for? 

(Should google it but I can’t be arsed!) 

I live in a nice area up north that driving a car is an experience due to the wrinkly things on sticks that think they can still drive their Jazz ok....

BUT, I do go to that there London a couple of times a year for business, so are you saying (what is basically to the likes of me) a congestion charge will apply if I want to drive my E91 320d there? 

And where does this zone start from? As I’ve been a few times an just been outside the congestion charge area......

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10 hours ago, DennisCooper said:

Hi,

 

POF - That could be an option for some, but I think for many it won't be - family, businesses and jobs being the main reasons. Also, don't forget, more and more other cities and larger towns will begin to implement the same things - Birmingham, Leeds, Southampton, Nottingham and Derby are also looking to crreate ULEZ's over the next 3 years. I'd hazard Manchester, Leicester/Coventry areas, Reading, Swindon won't be too far behind. Between all these places, that's a big proportion of the population.

 

10 hours ago, Blackman said:

 

That would be a bit extreme, moving house because you can no longer keep a car that you want....And that's not the point anyway.

 

Yeah, I realise it's not that simple to just up sticks and move, it was just a thought. 

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On 6/11/2018 at 12:29 AM, Yokozuna said:

I have no idea what your chatting? ULEZ? What does that stand for? 

(Should google it but I can’t be arsed!) 

I live in a nice area up north that driving a car is an experience due to the wrinkly things on sticks that think they can still drive their Jazz ok....

BUT, I do go to that there London a couple of times a year for business, so are you saying (what is basically to the likes of me) a congestion charge will apply if I want to drive my E91 320d there? 

And where does this zone start from? As I’ve been a few times an just been outside the congestion charge area......

 

 

 

If you can be arsed, read the very first line of the OP. 

If you can't be arsed, go on that holiday.. if you can be arsed to work out where!

 

Blackman - Unfortunately, perhaps 90% of the UK's driving population aren't enthusiasts and view a car for getting from A to B only. With the vast amount of the car market on some sort of finance, after a couple years they just give them back. Soon, a growing number will do that and just choose a car that won't be chargeable in those areas if they live there or need to visit often. 

 

Cheers, Dennis!

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Yokozuna, all the info about ULEZ is here > https://tfl.gov.uk/modes/driving/ultra-low-emission-zone

 

Essentially, from April next year, if your vehicle doesn't comply with the set emissions standards, then there will be an additional charge of £12.50 per day for driving in the Congestion charging zone aka Central London. This is a pretty small area of London and frankly doesn't affect me at all, whatever happens there.

 

However, the main thing we are discussing are the plans to vastly expand this zone and make it cover pretty much all inner/outer parts of London, which is set to go live from October 2021. If you look at the map and find North Circular Road (A406) and South Circular Road (A205), then those will be the borders of the expanded zone.

 

Still can't believe this is going to happen....

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1 hour ago, Blackman said:

Yokozuna, all the info about ULEZ is here > https://tfl.gov.uk/modes/driving/ultra-low-emission-zone

 

Essentially, from April next year, if your vehicle doesn't comply with the set emissions standards, then there will be an additional charge of £12.50 per day for driving in the Congestion charging zone aka Central London. This is a pretty small area of London and frankly doesn't affect me at all, whatever happens there.

 

However, the main thing we are discussing are the plans to vastly expand this zone and make it cover pretty much all inner/outer parts of London, which is set to go live from October 2021. If you look at the map and find North Circular Road (A406) and South Circular Road (A205), then those will be the borders of the expanded zone.

 

Still can't believe this is going to happen....

Cheers 

 

You “could” copy the reg of a Nissan Leaf and stick it on your proper powered car so the ANPR won’t get you! ;) you make get get found out by the boys in blue though....

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