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Captain Beaky

V8 Tapping Noise

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1 hour ago, kenny said:

 

No amount of changing the weight of oil will compensate for the worn vanos seals.

 

Agreed, however I have no rattle on start up from cold now with 10W50  Vs  Prolonged rattle harsher and louder after doing an oil change using 5W40

 

The one existing symptom is once the engine is at operating temperature if you leave it for a while and start it the rattle is there.

 

What is the connection between the Vanos and this rattle,? Why does it rattle? 

 

Also to consider is that there is absolutely no noise when the engine is idling ?? its dead quiet 

 

On thing I have seen on lots of videos are internal chain tensioners, could these be the issue? 

Edited by Captain Beaky

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The thing I find odd is that there is a rattle when starting from hot but not from cold, the Vanos rattle is caused by oil leaking out/air leaking in to the unit so you'd have thought it would be worse the longer you leave it. The rattle is the splined end of the vanos being able to move in the cam sprocket as there is no pressure to hold it steady.

 

 

Plucking at straws a bit but do you know the Vanos is working? If it isn't maybe it's something to do with the Vanos solenoid/actuators.

 

This may sound a bit daft but are you sure it's not the fuel tank vent?

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On 3/22/2018 at 3:09 PM, Captain Beaky said:

Hot Dogs for Tea Boys  :P

Changing the timing chain tensioner made absolutely no difference whatsoever, so i will be dumping the oil and going to 10w50

I would suggest LM Ceratec - two bottles needed due to huge oil capacity. 10w-50 is useful only if engine is using lots of oil. 

Edited by dmarkovina1
Added more info plus a typo...

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19 minutes ago, dmarkovina1 said:

I would suggest LM Ceratec - two bottles needed due to huge oil capacity. 10w-50 is useful only if engine is using lots of oil. 

 

I only used 10w50 to try and partition the fault, by deliberately using a thicker oil to prove the vanos seal have worn. I don't see what adding Ceratec will achieve, you can't protect something that has already worn. Have you used it for this problem?

 

Start up is okay, warm start up after allowing the car to stand for an hour or more proves the oil is draining back but not a rattle every time??

 

I,m still not convinced however because  the engine is dead quiet on idle  there is NO vanos noise, I did read about air in the oil that will cause the tappets to slap the top of the valve stems, this does sound plausible and to me,  the sound is like hydraulic tappets like an old CHV when the tappets leaked back, but only for a few seconds.

 

I am not really ofay with Vanos systems and still don't understand the link between the vanos and the hydraulic tappets??? Is there one ?  A lot of threads describe it but not the why and how?

 

I am starting to wonder if people are just saying tappets and actually mean vanos

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BACK TO THE DRAWING BOARD!

 

I called in with my local indy yesterday about this bloody rattle and these were his exact words " Boy stay off that internet it's full of shit"

 

He categorically says you cannot replace the seals on the 535i vanos............. WTF!!

 

So i'm at a crossroads!  There seems to be no definite thing i can point a finger at and say this is the reason why there is a rattle, all I know is that there is a direct correlation between the noise and oil used.

 

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6 hours ago, duncan-uk said:

 

Yeh ! I know

 

But he put a Vanos in my hand and i could not see where any seals could be fitted?

 

Item 1 in the picture

 

5abbdddc848b3_Vanosgear.png.08099899a162d5a596c093059ea50b56.png

 

 

Vanos gear.png

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You can change the seals the biesan way or machine open the vanos and make a threaded cap for it. 

Check out this video 

 

Also the check valve in the head could be leaking oil back to the sump but that can only be addressed by removing the vanos and distribution piece.

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Item 13 on the diagram, x 2 are these hydraulic tensioners also?

Is it possible that they are the cause of the noise on start up because every thread i have read about vanos and changing the seals speaks of a vanos noise while running, similar to a diesel engine.  Mine does not have this it's dead quiet, even when warm.

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Does anyone have a pair of old vanos gears for an M62 that they wish to part with?

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There is a check valve behind the Vanos solenoid to prevent oil draining from the unit. I think this not sealing properly would fit your symptoms but it’s a guess. 

 

I think it it can be changed just by removing the solenoid, no need to take the Vanos apart. 

 

https://www.ecstuning.com/b-genuine-bmw-parts/non-return-check-valve/11111734667/

Edited by Oneball

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Cheers Buddy

 

I am going to try and get a video of the engine on start up on here it may help

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okay here we go! I got a couple of videos of the engine starting up i'm not sue if the noise will come across as good as actually standing there

vid 1 was first thing this mornin

vid 2 was leaving work 10 hrs later

vid 3 2 hrs after arriving home

 

IMG_4614[1].MOV

IMG_4630[1].MOV

IMG_4631[1].MOV

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well the noise has got to be some hydraulic component because the noise clears after a few seconds with the oil pressure building but what the hell is it ??

 

Ive changed the obvious i.e. timing chain tensioner 

 

i guess the decision now is strip it and go looking but whatever happens if i.m in that far then the timing chain has to be changed along with the guides, Vanos seals or reconditioned units from the states but they are still 250 each, then there is the two small chains and tensioners? 

 

or

 

Change the engine

 

or  

 

Change the car

 

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Stupid question but it's not just a sticking hydraulic lifter is it? They can tick for a few seconds whilst oil pressure builds sometimes. I just looked and the ones used in the V8 E39 appear to be basically the same style / type as used in Volkswagen motors of the 80's and 90's (bucket style) and they are notorious for it.

 

http://www.enginebuildermag.com/2009/05/toubleshooting-bmw-hydraulic-bucket-tappet-problems/

 

 

Edited by chicaneuk

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In my very non-educated knowledge of these engines, it does sound a touch like chain slap to me, as in the guides are on their way out...

 

I looked at a few 740i E38s not so long ago and all 3 had similar noises and all 3, afterwards, were diagnosed with timing chain guide failure and 2 of them were sold for parts as the costs was too much

 

Hope it's not that, but I'd get someone in the know to have a deeper look and suss it out sooner rather than later

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Hm yeah... I hadn't listened to the video's before making my previous post, but listening to the video's I would agree with Dan. If that isn't timing chain related somehow, I'd be amazed.

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1 hour ago, d_a_n1979 said:

In my very non-educated knowledge of these engines, it does sound a touch like chain slap to me, as in the guides are on their way out...

 

I looked at a few 740i E38s not so long ago and all 3 had similar noises and all 3, afterwards, were diagnosed with timing chain guide failure and 2 of them were sold for parts as the costs was too much

 

Hope it's not that, but I'd get someone in the know to have a deeper look and suss it out sooner rather than later

 

I went to a BMW indy about 2 weeks ago, what a load of tosh! 

 

Talking to me as if I knew nothing, which as far as this goes then sort of yeh!  but not i'm retard either. As I said earlier in this thread he told me to stay off the internet and then basically went  Ooohh! Arrr,!  Boy, Hmmmm, you just can't go in there, it's a dark place! ooooh  money thousands, VANOS no no no no no you cany change them seals boy!  yeh yeh yeh scrap it! and that is nearly word for word plus some other tosh and waving vanos units in the air.

 

What a NOB! 

 

I can look deeper myself but the age old problem is time, money (as in is it worth it) and where because i have not built my garage yet, plus i will have to buy the locking tool for the cams and is almost as much as the chain.

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33 minutes ago, Captain Beaky said:

I guess the next step is off with the sump!

 

Aye; if there's any bits in there you'll know straight away :( 

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Out of interest, if you leave the key primed for 10-15 seconds before firing up the car, does that improve things at all?

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The last video sounds like VANOS, car is warmed up and gets louder and the first few video sounds like chain guides.

 

For me, this is just typical 540i maintenance, expensive but just wear and tear of  / bad design.

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