Jump to content
LukeP

Considering F10 M-Sport...

Recommended Posts

Hi All,

 

i am considering an F10 for my next car. 

 

Currently driving a Focus ST Diesel, but goes back to ALD in May. Always liked the F10 had one in demo in 2012, but now I’m 30more chance of affording one. 

 

Can an I ask what I should look out?

Whats cost of a tank/range? I work in Manchester so wanted to compare it against for my Focus. 

 

I have about £16k to spend but would rather spend £14,5k for a white M Sport 62 plate onwards with less than 60k. 520d. 

 

Thanks in advance. 

Edited by LukeP

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I keep wondering this too.

 

i do about 17-19k per year so ideally need something with a long range due to the journeys I do and decent MPG returns. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I would do at least a 2014 car with the B47 instead of the N47.

 

But IMO I would avoid the 4 pots altogether and just get an N57 6 pot (some 525D's, 530D or even 535D). Most find the 30D a good compromise and brisk enough (with the 35D being hard to get).

 

I do 16k a year in my 640D (same engine as the 35D) and it does just below 50MPG on the motorway day to day commute on A roads is more like late 30's.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
5 hours ago, LukeP said:

Hi All,

 

i am considering an F10 for my next car. 

 

Currently driving a Focus ST Diesel, but goes back to ALD in May. Always liked the F10 had one in demo in 2012, but now I’m 30more chance of affording one. 

 

Can an I ask what I should look out?

Whats cost of a tank/range? I work in Manchester so wanted to compare it against for my Focus. 

 

I have about £16k to spend but would rather spend £14,5k for a white M Sport 62 plate onwards with less than 60k. 520d. 

 

Thanks in advance. 

 

There are a few 2012 cars near me and the timing chain noise is embarrasing, plus the chance of it failing is Pretty real.  

 

Id go AUC for warranty and try to get the late 2014 models with the new engine, they are about 17 grand from dealers, I paid 18 grand for mine a few months ago, m sport, 20k miles, AUC warranty

 

to be honest I bet you could get one for your 17 grand if you play a few dealers off each other

 

its about 70 quid to fill it up and I get about 40 mpg average on 70 percent motorway driving, I never use eco pro as it’s sluggish so I’m always in sport mode.  You could prob get high 40s but you would be driving it in an unenjoyable way.

Edited by Paulnorthwest

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
22 hours ago, Ninja59 said:

But IMO I would avoid the 4 pots altogether and just get an N57 6 pot (some 525D's, 530D or even 535D). Most find the 30D a good compromise and brisk enough (with the 35D being hard to get).

 

^this!

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

There's nothing wrong with the 4-pot diesels. They're very efficient, smooth and powerful enough for most people. There's absolutely no doubt that the 6-pot's are better in most measurable ways (other than economy), but that doesn't mean you should be put off of the 520d, which is a great car - it's the most common F10 on the road for a reason.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I agree with Rob. It's very easy to end up with mid30s economy on the 530d, not that i dont love it, but if fuel costs were a big consideration then the 2.0d makes a lot more sense - also has less nose weight so a tad more sprightly. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Depends how much MPG bothers you. Range wise my 640 will still pull about 500 - 550 miles to a tank.

 

I do not have anything against the 2.0 and agree that it does deliver good performance v economy. But the N47 for many has become a little b*stard child (even though if I agree many cars have significant mileage before issues, but some have not), I think knowing that would always worry me.

 

Which leads us to the B47, many say this is much better, but I don't think we truly know the longevity of the engine yet. But at least it appears to be much better ,despite sharing a number of the timing parts arrangement of the final versions of the N47.

 

For me though much of it was driven that the overall penalty for sitting behind a 6 pot was not that great. Even the 6 pots driven sensibly cruising along can deliver amazing MPG, the noise is good (or at least from the 530 and 535/640) for any engine, let alone a diesel (I do agree obviously some manipulation via audio will have a part). 

 

Looking around the uplift between them is not that great between a 20D and 30D ( I would hesitate over the 525 due to it changing to a 4 pot during the F10/11 lifespan and even my aftersales manager at my dealer refers to the 6 pot 525 as having the right engine with no real go, brutal yes!).

 

Coming from my 640, I did notice the 530 working a little harder, but the 520 was just no fun. Sitting behind an engine for any decent mileage you want something that can just deliver a bit of fun when you can (unless you have more exciting alongside it, but even then for a while my 640 and my MX5 lived alongside each other, daft thing is eventually I started taking the 640 (yes a diesel) out for fun. It was just more fun taking a barge out (and the mods on the MX5 meant the speed limit (ironically) despite low power was very restrictive due to the speed the MX5 with mods could carry in my case properly lowered, aligned, ARB's and few other bushes, biggest difference was changing tyres to Yokohama AD08R's). 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Ive just come from a N47 120d (took mine to over 130k) and would avoid that engine like the plague (mine had the timing chain replaced under warranty). Now i have a 530D and the N57 3 litre diesel is just a joy on a run i get 52mpg (from surrey to cambridge) and am averaging about 44 mpg over the first 2k miles. Dont get me wrong the N47 is a great engine economical (mine averaged between 58 and 60 mpg measured at the pump)  and and powerful but that timing chain is just so expensive when it goes wrong. I had 1 water pump failure, both timing chains replaced (cost 2.5 k at BMW) glow plugs and relays went at 110k and wiring loom for engine temperature management failed at 120k.

 

Love the 530D the power delivery is that much smoother too.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
5 hours ago, Markn47 said:

My indy has a customer who's car has the N47 engine and its done 295k with no timing chain issues. More regular oil and filter changes are the secret apparently every 6k if you can.

Maybe, but mine were done every 8k from 40k and i still needed two new chains. Early pre 2011 N47's are by far the worst though.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

(Warning, unpopular opinion incoming...)

 

How many 520d owners are there in the UK?

How many come onto a car forum to say 'Nothing went wrong today, everything's fine', or 'bought my car, drove it for a few years, sold it'?

 

There are definitely weaknesses in the N47 (later variants are better, however). But that can be said for any engine in any car. People only come onto forums to talk about their problems, or things they don't understand, not to tell us everything is fine, so things always sound worse than they are in reality. Don't ignore good, honest feedback... but also remember, those comments come from somebody who is annoyed at their car, not from the majority of owners just driving their car without worry. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, RobM said:

(Warning, unpopular opinion incoming...)

 

How many 520d owners are there in the UK?

How many come onto a car forum to say 'Nothing went wrong today, everything's fine', or 'bought my car, drove it for a few years, sold it'?

 

There are definitely weaknesses in the N47 (later variants are better, however). But that can be said for any engine in any car. People only come onto forums to talk about their problems, or things they don't understand, not to tell us everything is fine, so things always sound worse than they are in reality. Don't ignore good, honest feedback... but also remember, those comments come from somebody who is annoyed at their car, not from the majority of owners just driving their car without worry. 

 

When it is the same car with the same engine being complained about time and time again, the potential for a very expensive repair must be taken into consideration when deciding whether to buy such a car. Remember it is a very small minority of car drivers anal enough about their cars to bother spending time on the forums so the opposite is also true, how many drivers out there have problems that we never hear about. 

 

People want to buy a car that is going to see them through for a number of years hopefully troublefree. All we are saying is that careful consideration needs to be given to buying an N47 engined car and to furnish someone like the OP with a spectrum of experiences so they can make an informed decision.

 

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
4 minutes ago, Matthew Ashton said:

 

When it is the same car with the same engine being complained about time and time again, the potential for a very expensive repair must be taken into consideration when deciding whether to buy such a car. Remember it is a very small minority of car drivers anal enough about their cars to bother spending time on the forums so the opposite is also true, how many drivers out there have problems that we never hear about. 

 

People want to buy a car that is going to see them through for a number of years hopefully troublefree. All we are saying is that careful consideration needs to be given to buying an N47 engined car and to furnish someone like the OP with a spectrum of experiences so they can make an informed decision.

 

 

 

I agree... sharing knowledge and experience is the point of these forums, it just needs to be taken in context and IMO, should avoid telling people to avoid something as if it's a guaranteed problem.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, bmwmike said:

Do BMW replace the chain like for like or with an uprated version?

 

 

 

The chain for the N47 is not really the real problem here. Added to this really is that the N47 (like many engines) uses multiple chains (so saying "chain" really is not the full truth, sadly this made the issue worse).

 

BMW really fucked up by issuing the update with multiple stages, when really all the chains needed replacing, unfortunately to do the job properly is an engine out job, plus one other component that I will get to in a minute that really made the whole issue worse.

 

The end result is the chain stretching, in fact in any vehicle using a timing chain there will be a degree of stretch like it or not. It is just to what degree, and if any damage results.

 

The problem with many cars comes when the tensioners run out of movement or the guides become brittle and break up. Equally oil spraying nozzles can clearly deliver shit oil as well which if left for extended intervals is not going to help lubrication. Clearly doing more oil changes (which are cheap) is going to help extend intervals.

 

The N47's actual true underlying issue really is down to the bastard camshaft with machined sprockets on the camshaft, these sharpened and eventually resulted in most of the issues. Why the bleep these were used is unknown, considering the N57 does not share the same setup.

 

The other irony as well is that the N47/B47/N57/B57 actually share exactly the same timing chains (down to the same part numbers), oil nozzles are the same, the tensioners as well, the only real difference is the guides.

 

I do believe later revisions did include more length and tensioning movement though over the earlier ones.

 

Speaking with a few techs I have got to know the actual issue from their view (and one who owns an N47 car - who replaced all chains) off the record was this - most of the cars had significant mileage (although both accepted that some cars did suffer with premature timing chain stretch), however the reason off the record both said is that ALL chains, camshafts and the entire timing setup should have been done on every affected car. Replacing one chain just moved the stress to another area, or in another way moved the issue to a tired, weaker chain.

Edited by Ninja59

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

@Ninja59 spot on from how i understand the issue. In fact when i was test driving an approved used BMW the salesman was saying about buying approved used gives me reassurance the i will receive good looking after by BMW and used the case of the chap who was picking his car up that day he brought approved used and had its engine fixed at huge cost to BMW. Upon further poking of the salesman he admitted it was a n47 timing chain issue. We on babybmw.net have seen cars with new chains fitted under the QE program failing because BMW didn't replace the stupid single machined shaft and sprocket assembly that is gradually sharpening up. Anyway you do get 200k N47's equally you get a lot of chain failures in the 100's of k (mine went at 85k). The good thing is there are a lot of N47 in the 1 3 and 5 series and in (minis too i think) so there is a lot of evidence about the reliability of this engine out there.

 

My N57 is amazing for me the increased level of reliability and smoothness of drive is worth those 7-8 MPG less to me.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
23 hours ago, Ninja59 said:

Depends how much MPG bothers you. Range wise my 640 will still pull about 500 - 550 miles to a tank.

 

I do not have anything against the 2.0 and agree that it does deliver good performance v economy. But the N47 for many has become a little b*stard child (even though if I agree many cars have significant mileage before issues, but some have not), I think knowing that would always worry me.

 

Which leads us to the B47, many say this is much better, but I don't think we truly know the longevity of the engine yet. But at least it appears to be much better ,despite sharing a number of the timing parts arrangement of the final versions of the N47.

 

For me though much of it was driven that the overall penalty for sitting behind a 6 pot was not that great. Even the 6 pots driven sensibly cruising along can deliver amazing MPG, the noise is good (or at least from the 530 and 535/640) for any engine, let alone a diesel (I do agree obviously some manipulation via audio will have a part). 

 

Looking around the uplift between them is not that great between a 20D and 30D ( I would hesitate over the 525 due to it changing to a 4 pot during the F10/11 lifespan and even my aftersales manager at my dealer refers to the 6 pot 525 as having the right engine with no real go, brutal yes!).

 

Coming from my 640, I did notice the 530 working a little harder, but the 520 was just no fun. Sitting behind an engine for any decent mileage you want something that can just deliver a bit of fun when you can (unless you have more exciting alongside it, but even then for a while my 640 and my MX5 lived alongside each other, daft thing is eventually I started taking the 640 (yes a diesel) out for fun. It was just more fun taking a barge out (and the mods on the MX5 meant the speed limit (ironically) despite low power was very restrictive due to the speed the MX5 with mods could carry in my case properly lowered, aligned, ARB's and few other bushes, biggest difference was changing tyres to Yokohama AD08R's). 

 

Ive got a 6 pot 525D and "NO GO???" errr, its got plenty of shove and not remapped yet, £300 quid remap sees it somewhere around 270BHP... but I dont see the need, its plenty quick enough for our roads

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
6 minutes ago, Greenninja said:

 

Ive got a 6 pot 525D and "NO GO???" errr, its got plenty of shove and not remapped yet, £300 quid remap sees it somewhere around 270BHP... but I dont see the need, its plenty quick enough for our roads

 

It was meant in the context of comparing it with the 530D and 535D. I can sort of see where he is coming from - and unfortunately of course the 525D did get "downgraded" to a 4 pot.

 

I am not saying any of these engines are "slow", and can easily exceed our stated limits easily, it just how easily they achieve that. For example I got put behind 2 N57's one in an F10, the other the hideous X4. To me the 5 was interesting as even then I found the single scroll turbo not as smooth in delivery and punchy as my 640 with the twin setup.

Edited by Ninja59

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I'm not sure what to say about the 520d. I bought it as I wanted certain kit items missing from my E91 325i and needed more space. It don't hammer it as I have something more interesting in the garage for the odd blat.

 

8000 miles into my ownership, I am very happy with all aspects of the car but the 4 cyl does irritate a bit. It's not the performance, which is similar in the real world to the previous car and all I want for my motorway hack/family estate. It's the noise that it makes when starting off from a standstill. Whereas a 6cy diesel would be silky smooth, the 4 cyl is just very ordinary. The efficient and low 1st gear just makes things worse.

 

Over 90% of my driving is on the motorway where the refinement is the same as any other 5 series, of any engine type. Phew.

 

If I was buying again, I would get a 6cyl for refinement at slow speeds. From everything I read, the economy levels of any of the derv powered 5 series are similar.

 

The OP has a high annual mileage so is definitely in the bracket for whom a diesel makes sense. At 14,000 miles a year, I think I am as well, albeit only just.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
50 minutes ago, jake13 said:

If you own a 300bhp+ car, the word 'queue' is not in your vocabulary.

 

To be fair and this is going to sound very "wrong", but I do not consider 300 bhp "a lot" these days. How times have changed when 300 bhp is nothing to really truly write home about, more so as so many more "mundane" not [insert performance version of choice] now come with such outputs (and even in specific cases smaller hatchback type vehicles sporting 2 litre engines with a turbo bolted to it - your Focus RS/A45 etc.)

 

The problem for me is they just sound poo inside (and the popping exhausts) when really progressing on, so much worse than my N57. Some context is my dad bought as a retirement pressie to himself a V60 Polestar, but not the older T6 6 pot, no the 4 pot 2.0 with turbo and supercharger. Now at low revs it sounds nice with the supercharger at higher revs inside though the tappety/rough nature only frustrates. Even if it is significantly quicker than my 6. Outside the Polestar definitely sounds better than most of the other 2.0 litre cars (mostly because of the slightly antisocial exhaust). 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

To me, personally,  it's not outright power but how that power is delivered. Feel, sound, NVH, etc all play a part in the enjoyment of driving a car and controlling the engine. I've heard others say and I think it's true... it's often more fun to drive a slower car fast than HAVE to drive a fast car slower than it could otherwise go. Extracting the power is part of the fun. IMO.

 

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now

×